Curse

Cebe · Feb 27, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

i happen to notice if you place [backfire] on a target they never cast.

Backfire is a massive waste for PvE. It's expensive, has a long recharge, and if you're "doing it right" foes shouldn't be alive for long enough to take much (if any) damage from Backfire anyway.

Maybe worth taking for Hard Mode bosses...but I never bother...there are better ways.

Anwyn · Feb 27, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

VoR covers any need for backfire in pve IMO...

fireflyry · Feb 27, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Different perspective:

As a sin main [skill]empathy[/skill] equates to me being screwed till it's removed or ends.One skill....

Most popular anti-melee builds completely rape me 1v1 if I'm stupid enough to stick around or not target switch.

My point being I never have understood the dislike towards "cookie cutter" builds, across all classes.

The community hates the popular ease of use, effectiveness and synergy certain builds bring?

Retarded.

I'm all for experimentation and creativity in PvE, less so in PvP unless it works.

Most of the time your just running a sub par build in order to claim the title of being unique.

I'd rather win.

Unique mesmer bars are gank fodder for a sin most of the time.Remember that.

P.S [Fevered Dreams] is gravy and I worship any mesmer who uses it.

Stealth Bomberman · Feb 27, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Backfire is a massive waste for PvE. It's expensive, has a long recharge, and if you're "doing it right" foes shouldn't be alive for long enough to take much (if any) damage from Backfire anyway.

Maybe worth taking for Hard Mode bosses...but I never bother...there are better ways.

which is why I only used it from lvl 1-19.

zhnord · Feb 27, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I think it's my turn.. so here i go:

What I said, and which - in your words - seemed to have fallen on deaf ears as well, is that Empathy is not bad, in a team without a tank. I don't think i have to talk to you guys like you were 10, so im not going to boldprint stuff. Neither do i think that you are as disrespectful as to ignore my post and my opinion because i dont. At least i hope you are not.

The thing is that Tyla said that a HM meele does a lot of damage in 14 seconds and it would be better to bring something that kills faster or supports better. I agree. But this is were i cant follow, please explain:
I suggested you a build that offers daze - which Tyla made sound like the best condition in HM PvE - , blind, and as a bonus even cripples. Tyla, in return, said, he/she doesn't care about the blind/cripple. I feel like i owe you an explanation why i suggested to bring blind and cripple. Blind takes out 90% of the damage a meele does. Any meele. Even a HM meele. Cripple is to keep the enemies in our teams AoE spells. I dont think this is hard to understand, is it?

(Now, please don't go: "Well, why bring blind, if you could bring something that kills them before they do any damage at all." Why did you suggest to bring daze, if you could bring something that kills casters before they do any damage at all? I'm gonna tell you why: Because it is simply impossible to kill every enemy caster and meele before the hit once or cast a spell. Thats why.)

Again, I'd like to point out that me and Tyla were talking about Empathy, VoR, and Backfire in a tankless team.

But maybe to expand this discussion a little bit: All who still insist on mesmers being bad in pve, please post a build of this other uber-damage-dealing-class so it is easier to compare.

And one last thing: I'd like to remind all of you, that we should be here to learn from each other, not to prove the other wrong / look smart (which doesn't work over the internet anyways). I am willing to change my opinion, if you bring arguments that make me change it.

Tyla · Feb 27, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhnord

What I said, and which - in your words - seemed to have fallen on deaf ears as well, is that Empathy is not bad, in a team without a tank. I don't think i have to talk to you guys like you were 10, so im not going to boldprint stuff. Neither do i think that you are as disrespectful as to ignore my post and my opinion because i dont. At least i hope you are not.

Actually, I never use a tank. Want me to tell you why? I don't take place in Tank'n'Spank. Now, if you're calling all melee a tank, the only one that can effectively control aggro is someone utilising Earth Shaker, and without the right aggro control you're going to get at most 3 enemies. This means casters WAY back until the ES is done holding them into place, and that... slows down the fight considerably.

Quote:

The thing is that Tyla said that a HM meele does a lot of damage in 14 seconds and it would be better to bring something that kills faster or supports better. I agree.

You completely missed my point. Whether or not that HM enemies do a lot of damage is irrelevent in this respect, the fact that you're using Empathy as a damage source pretty much means you're wasting either that or cripple if using defensively, and putting it on something as huge offense will only make that skill wasteful. Then? Oh look, it's all been wasted. 10 energy, a skill slot.

Quote:

But this is were i cant follow, please explain:
I suggested you a build that offers daze - which Tyla made sound like the best condition in HM PvE - , blind, and as a bonus even cripples. Tyla, in return, said, he/she doesn't care about the blind/cripple. I feel like i owe you an explanation why i suggested to bring blind and cripple. Blind takes out 90% of the damage a meele does. Any meele. Even a HM meele. Cripple is to keep the enemies in our teams AoE spells. I dont think this is hard to understand, is it?

There are a lot of counters to melee, more than defense against caster based things. Guardian, Aegis, Ward Against Melee and so on, and even kiting can do so (unless somehow enemies learn to Chiizu Dance in PvE).

The counters to casters, however, are a lot smaller, but with the PvE skill there, you should use it, crush the enemy (there's a reason you use daze on enemies you WANT to kill), done. The mob should be dead in a few seconds unless it's huge.

Quote:

(Now, please don't go: "Well, why bring blind, if you could bring something that kills them before they do any damage at all." Why did you suggest to bring daze, if you could bring something that kills casters before they do any damage at all? I'm gonna tell you why: Because it is simply impossible to kill every enemy caster and meele before the hit once or cast a spell. Thats why.)

I'll repeat this although its been said in the same post, for emphasis:

Physical counters are many, whereas caster counters aren't.

Quote:

But maybe to expand this discussion a little bit: All who still insist on mesmers being bad in pve, please post a build of this other uber-damage-dealing-class so it is easier to compare.

Again, Mesmers aren't bad in PvE, there are just better options. Unless you don't believe in power creep?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wubbies

so u think vor and empathy are not good skills to have in pve?
(if u havent noticed most elite areas look for mesmers with vor/cop) try again

im sure the only good skills are the ones u prefer and the only good builds are the ones u say are.

On-attack skills don't even compare to crushing your enemy all out, because they need to do something for the damage to happen. What the majority do doesn't make a difference, they were still using Tank'N'Spank when you could just pop them in really fast without using such a slow method, before PvE skills and consumables.

Quote:

if u r complaining about enemies getting killer buffs in pve..pve is easy no need to qq

What? You're honestly saying this? I'm merely explaining that enemies in PvE get huge buffs. The biggest culprit in the damage area in PvE belongs to casters, so you want to... you know, slap them in the face and stop them doing shit to you?

Also, thank you for further explaining my post, Tyrael.

zhnord · Feb 27, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Actually, I never use a tank. Want me to tell you why? I don't take place in Tank'n'Spank. Now, if you're calling all melee a tank, the only one that can effectively control aggro is someone utilising Earth Shaker, and without the right aggro control you're going to get at most 3 enemies. This means casters WAY back until the ES is done holding them into place, and that... slows down the fight considerably.

For normal vanquishing i agree, no need for a tank. Discordway is just easier/more comfortable and maybe even faster. What about elite areas though? I don't think you could fr FoW faster than with Cryway (wrong i know, speedclear, but this is a very special form of pve..). And Cryway is pretty much based on Mesmers, agree?

I'm very interested in your herosetup/mainclass for vanquishing, not because i want to judge you but because i want to learn and/or maybe help you.
Because when i go vanquishing with my mesmer, i dont take any physical at all. Minions absorb the damage, Discord / Cry of Pain kills stuff, Monk henchmen heal alright (with the support of the Discordway team). Why bring a physical?

If you don't take place in Tank'n'Spank, how do you farm FoW/UW/other elite areas? See, i don't think T'n'S is fun, but it's fast (a perma assa does the tank job pretty good, no big time loss, CoP everything away, next 3-6 Groups...), it's pretty save, and it's what the majority does. (I know what the majority does isn't "good" but it's what you are likely to find when looking for a group).

Quote:

You completely missed my point. Whether or not that HM enemies do a lot of damage is irrelevent in this respect, the fact that you're using Empathy as a damage source pretty much means you're wasting either that or cripple if using defensively, and putting it on something as huge offense will only make that skill wasteful. Then? Oh look, it's all been wasted. 10 energy, a skill slot.

There are a lot of counters to melee, more than defense against caster based things. Guardian, Aegis, Ward Against Melee and so on, and even kiting can do so (unless somehow enemies learn to Chiizu Dance in PvE).

Well. Am I not missing your point if i say that you rather bring [[Aegis] than blind? Doesn't [[Aegis], [[Guardian], ward etc. only make enemies "miss" 50% of the time and blind makes them miss 90%? So which one is the wasted skillslot? And c'mon only 20% of all Guild Wars Players even know what Chiizu Dance is, it will never be relevant for PvE, why even bring it in the discussion?

Quote:

The counters to casters, however, are a lot smaller, but with the PvE skill there, you should use it, crush the enemy (there's a reason you use daze on enemies you WANT to kill), done. The mob should be dead in a few seconds unless it's huge.

Daze doesn't make you kill stuff much faster. Unless someone's auto-attaking the enemy monk 24/7 it doesn't make you kill stuff faster at all. The mob should be dead in a few seconds anyways, imo Daze is a waste.

Quote:

I'll repeat this although its been said in the same post, for emphasis:

Physical counters are many, whereas caster counters aren't.

I dont think i get your point. How does this matter?

Quote:

Again, Mesmers aren't bad in PvE, there are just better options.

PLEASE, PLEASE post a build that is a better option. I start to think that you don't know one if you don't. (I hope this helped motivate you post one.. hrhr)

Earth · Feb 27, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

If daze doesn't make you kill faster, why do you take blind?

zhnord · Feb 27, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I'm not. But since he wanted daze i thought he might like blind as well. Because it is pretty much the same for meele as daze is for casters.

Tyla · Feb 27, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhnord

For normal vanquishing i agree, no need for a tank. Discordway is just easier/more comfortable and maybe even faster. What about elite areas though? I don't think you could fr FoW faster than with Cryway (wrong i know, speedclear, but this is a very special form of pve..). And Cryway is pretty much based on Mesmers, agree?

Cryway is based on massive AoE armour-ignoring damage, and Cry of Pain is an unlinked Mesmer skill with the mere requirement of a single Mesmer hex, which could be any. The only reason to use a Mesmer over a Necromancer or Elementalist is Assassins' Promise, and even then I'd rather take Ether Renewal for the better energy management.

Quote:

I'm very interested in your herosetup/mainclass for vanquishing, not because i want to judge you but because i want to learn and/or maybe help you.

Don't have one, I just run out and C-Space. That, and I play a Ranger, so I'm never going to have an optimal choice (in which case I'd take an Earth Shaker).

Quote:

Because when i go vanquishing with my mesmer, i dont take any physical at all. Minions absorb the damage, Discord / Cry of Pain kills stuff, Monk henchmen heal alright (with the support of the Discordway team). Why bring a physical?

Taking an AI physical isn't a good choice unless you feel like microing a lot, and with their performance it's better to take a caster when you've not got PvE skills.

Quote:

If you don't take place in Tank'n'Spank, how do you farm FoW/UW/other elite areas? See, i don't think T'n'S is fun, but it's fast (a perma assa does the tank job pretty good, no big time loss, CoP everything away, next 3-6 Groups...), it's pretty save, and it's what the majority does. (I know what the majority does isn't "good" but it's what you are likely to find when looking for a group).

I don't farm, because I don't care for the economy.

In which case, guess what? Tank'N'Spank isn't the only method to play the elite areas of this game, you just don't branch out your view.

Quote:

Well. Am I not missing your point if i say that you rather bring [[Aegis] than blind? Doesn't [[Aegis], [[Guardian], ward etc. only make enemies "miss" 50% of the time and blind makes them miss 90%? So which one is the wasted skillslot? And c'mon only 20% of all Guild Wars Players even know what Chiizu Dance is, it will never be relevant for PvE, why even bring it in the discussion?

You'd probably be taking that shit anyway, and blind is often a dear condition too. Blind won't do anything when it's not on something, whereas Aegis and wards will.

Also, the reason I said "unless the monsters learn to Chiizu Dance" is because Chiizu Dancing allows more movement between attacks, making kiting harder, and unless you have cripple, the speed boost is going to make them practically stick to you.

Quote:

Daze doesn't make you kill stuff much faster. Unless someone's auto-attaking the enemy monk 24/7 it doesn't make you kill stuff faster at all. The mob should be dead in a few seconds anyways, imo Daze is a waste.

If you see an enemy Monk, and its under the right circumstances, daze it, kill it, move on to the rest. If you don't daze the Monk, maybe it'll get some heals off, and hurt your damage output.

Quote:

I dont think i get your point. How does this matter?

Outside of interrupting, the amount of caster counters compared to physical counters are quite minimal indeed. Not to mention that physical counters apply to wanding too, which can be painful at times in HM.

Quote:

PLEASE, PLEASE post a build that is a better option. I start to think that you don't know one if you don't. (I hope this helped motivate you post one.. hrhr)

[barrage][splinter weapon]

[death blossom]

There's more, but I really can't be arsed.

Wubbies · Feb 27, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Actually, I never use a tank. Want me to tell you why? I don't take place in Tank'n'Spank. Now, if you're calling all melee a tank, the only one that can effectively control aggro is someone utilising Earth Shaker, and without the right aggro control you're going to get at most 3 enemies. This means casters WAY back until the ES is done holding them into place, and that... slows down the fight considerably.

You completely missed my point. Whether or not that HM enemies do a lot of damage is irrelevent in this respect, the fact that you're using Empathy as a damage source pretty much means you're wasting either that or cripple if using defensively, and putting it on something as huge offense will only make that skill wasteful. Then? Oh look, it's all been wasted. 10 energy, a skill slot.

There are a lot of counters to melee, more than defense against caster based things. Guardian, Aegis, Ward Against Melee and so on, and even kiting can do so (unless somehow enemies learn to Chiizu Dance in PvE).

The counters to casters, however, are a lot smaller, but with the PvE skill there, you should use it, crush the enemy (there's a reason you use daze on enemies you WANT to kill), done. The mob should be dead in a few seconds unless it's huge.

I'll repeat this although its been said in the same post, for emphasis:

Physical counters are many, whereas caster counters aren't.

Again, Mesmers aren't bad in PvE, there are just better options. Unless you don't believe in power creep?

On-attack skills don't even compare to crushing your enemy all out, because they need to do something for the damage to happen. What the majority do doesn't make a difference, they were still using Tank'N'Spank when you could just pop them in really fast without using such a slow method, before PvE skills and consumables.

What? You're honestly saying this? I'm merely explaining that enemies in PvE get huge buffs. The biggest culprit in the damage area in PvE belongs to casters, so you want to... you know, slap them in the face and stop them doing shit to you?

Also, thank you for further explaining my post, Tyrael.

LOL you Sound intelligent...lol

Calista Blackblood · Feb 27, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

What Tyla is saying, which happens to be falling on deaf ears, is that from a PvE standpoint skills like Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS are not optimal. Tyla has explained the reasoning behind this, which, again, has fallen on deaf ears.

I'm going to try to explain it again (and Tyla, if I make any complete bassackwards assumptions, feel free to correct my misunderstandings), maybe if I can say the same general thing in different words, it might get through.

Start by taking a look at what Tyla said in Post #24:

Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS all deal damage based on the hexed foe doing something. 'Kay?

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences, whether it is getting attacked, hexed, nuked, whatever.

The point is that rather than using skills that require the enemy to beat the living hell out of you in order for them to trigger their damage, why aren't you using a proactive/aggressive stance and dealing damage and killing those enemies BEFORE they have a chance to get those nasty attacks and spells off?

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice. As a human player, the choice ISN'T ALWAYS attack and cast through whatever hexes are stacked on you. But the AI will ALWAYS attack/cast through whatever nastiness you stick on them. ALWAYS. Whereas in a PvP setting, the player might choose to wait for hex removal if he/she is too far out from their backline. Forcing a skill to be used or not be used is infinitely more practical and useful in PvP. In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face" are neutered, and thus outclassed by direct brute force (direct spell damage or physicals knocking teeth out, take your pick). They are a control mechanism, and that control is why they are so powerful.

In PvE, sure, these skills do damage, but only if the hexed foe carries out the trigger action. In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever. Therefore, the power of those skills is worthless. Sure, you get the damage, but rather than stopping the enemy from causing damage, controlling the situation (as [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] would do) you still suffer from the attacks/spell effects of the enemy.

If you use other classes, or other skills, you are still better off than using a Mesmer in PvE because they are about control, not the damage that results from the skills themselves (only ~25% of the real power involved in this case, tbh).

Yeah, long explanation. Maybe that helped clarify?

If not, feel free to rip me a new one.

This has to be the best post I've seen on guru today....This is why many of the forum users say [[spiteful spirit] and other "reactive hexes" are bad... But but but it does 35 damage @15 curses...Yep but how much damage has your team taken from the mob in that time while your reactive hexing offence is barely scratching the surface?

Ps:Note-padding this and bookmarking for future reference.../clap Tyrael

_Nihilist_ · Feb 27, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Others have said it time and again Calista, I just got tired of the back and forth and detailed it out.

One final point:

There is a reason why [Assassin's Promise] + [Mark of Pain] + PvE skills is more popular than [Arcane Echo] + [Spiteful Spirit]. If you can't get it... oh well...

Sure, when I want to blow off some steam I grab a buddy and load up Arcane Echo+SS on my Necro and they load up their 55 Monk and I SS the bejeezus out of Aatxes and Smites and Terrorwebs, but that's farming. The Monk isn't taking any damage that he/she isn't going to insta-regen, and SS kills faster than anything else in that specific case, but that doesn't mean that I should be using SS (or, since we are talking about why reactive hexes water down mesmers in PvE any reactive hex) all the time, regardless of the specifics, the circumstances, and the availability of better options.

xxUnReaLxx1 · Feb 28, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

vor+backfire+empathy is bad... only fail mesmers run it in pvp anyway. good mesmers in pve either run echo CoP gylph of reknewal CoP or MoR cop... fc nuking is bad. in pvpvor is inferior to other elites, although 100 damage may seem like alot, only noobs really do anything or leave it on.

faraaz · Feb 28, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

I know this is offtopic, but Tyrael, do you always bold people's name in your responses? O.o

And yes, we've had a lot of omfggtfonubhax on the sin vs. warrior threads, but Tyrael was pure ownage here. ^^

PS:

Quote:

In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face" are neutered, and thus outclassed by direct brute force (direct spell damage or physicals knocking teeth out, take your pick).

Best. Sentence. Ever.

Tyla · Feb 28, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxUnReaLxx1

vor+backfire+empathy is bad... only fail mesmers run it in pvp anyway.

Not really. Minus Empathy (the only thing this would stop is Frenzying), VoR and Backfire (coupled together) are just easy to use - their psychological effects are simply amazing.

MegaVolti · Feb 28, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

I know in PvE mesmers have a wide range of builds at their disposal for HM and vanquishing ect...

but in PvP, they're to me, somewhat lacking in the creativity dpt.

I'm the kind of player that'll come up with a completely diff kind of build, even use skills ppl dont look twice at and work on it till it works in some way shape or form.

Seems like though, in pvp, ppl only want [visions of regret][empathy][backfire][wastrels worry] and PvE ppl only want fast cast nukers (low end pve i pressume).

do you guys believe in this concept?

Guild Wars is not balanced. There are skills that are considerably better then others. Yes, you can make almost everything work, but GW isn't really rocket science so figuring out which build is the most effective usually happens fast. If you want an efficient team then there never ever is a reason to not use one of the efficient builds.

But people are morons. Patches change balance, expansions do, introduction of hard more does - and people keep playing the old, now ineffective, builds. "Out in the wild" people generally do not play very efficient. You have to look at the people that really care about builds to get good ones - like these forums.

So giving into some random build request in the game is often unnecessary. Looking up good and efficient "cookie cutter" builds in the forum and trying these is a good thing.

Chthon · Feb 28, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

- snip -

An excellent explanation, but still a little bit off.

The premise that...

Quote:

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences

... is wrong. For the most part, you can pretty easily blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS your way to the point where the hexed monster can do whatever it wants without generating any real consequences for your team.

The real reason reactive curses are weak is that you can just kill stuff faster through direct damage. A large number of direct damage options power-crept waaay past the reactive curses quite awhile ago, and we didn't really notice at the time. Damage from reactive curses is limited by the monsters' attack/cast rate; Direct damage is limited by factors intrinsic to your build.

Of course, for those of us who haven't learned how to blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS to the degree that monster activities have no real consequences (and for the all of us when facing those handful of monsters against whom the usual blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS tricks don't work), leaving the monsters to their own devices isn't exactly a bright idea.

Calista Blackblood · Feb 28, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

An excellent explanation, but still a little bit off.
... is wrong. For the most part, you can pretty easily blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS your way to the point where the hexed monster can do whatever it wants without generating any real consequences for your team.

The real reason reactive curses are weak is that you can just kill stuff faster through direct damage. A large number of direct damage options power-crept waaay past the reactive curses quite awhile ago, and we didn't really notice at the time. Damage from reactive curses is limited by the monsters' attack/cast rate; Direct damage is limited by factors intrinsic to your build.

Of course, for those of us who haven't learned how to blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS to the degree that monster activities have no real consequences (and for the all of us when facing those handful of monsters against whom the usual blind, weaken ,SY!, and PS tricks don't work), leaving the monsters to their own devices isn't exactly a bright idea.

I wouldn't say directly wrong(you both have valid points)..In a PvE environment where fast killing is paramount,

Take 2 examples:
1: Direct damage loaded team,minimal defence.
2:Aegis chaining,party protting+SY with the majority of damage output being reactive hexes.

E1:Quickly dead foes don't usually get a chance to deal(much if any) damage thus less healing,less bar strain,less prot,less defence needed.

E2:Constant bar strain maintaining the defensive web,no pre-protting with heros,greater energy consumption pushing red bars,unecessesary damage taken..Greatly inefficient and much slower..

You can out prot/out heal damage taken and reactively(via hexes) deal damage but direct damage will always be faster and more efficient. Less is more o.O

But I know you know this Chthon

Chthon · Feb 28, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

You can out prot/out heal damage taken and reactively(via hexes) deal damage but direct damage will always be faster and more efficient.

That is precisely my point. You CAN out prot/out heal damage taken and reactively(via hexes) deal damage BUT direct damage will always be FASTER and more efficient. The real issue is speed, not damage taken.