Curse

LexTalionis · Apr 12, 2011, 05:14 PM // 17:14

I'm afraid this post isn't so much about Mesmers as Mesmer-support.

I'm a Primary Mesmer that runs a Mesmer-heavy team which mainly does solo Hard Mode content. Unfortunately, as you all probably know, due to the nature of Fast Casting, Mesmers tend to run out of Energy very very quickly in PvE.

The conventional wisdom is to use Power Drain/Leech Signet, but that simply doesn't stack well with mass interrupts and my heavy reliance on Mistrust/Guilt (Precast failure hexes currently seem to be a little bugged? - They seem to activate at the beginning of a cast rather than the end if the monster *starts* casting while under the effect of the hex). I find "Waste Not, Want Not" a little lacking, and as a result I've started using a "Blood is Power" user to substitute for energy management for my entire Mesmer artillery!

Obviously, I don't want my battery to die in the middle of a fight with large amounts of Area-of-Effect damage being thrown around (this happened a few times when I was using a Paragon to do "Blood is Power" in War in Kryta content) - as a result, I've sort of built my backline around keeping the "Blood is Power" caster alive and I think I've overdone it.

(I tried sticking "Blood is Power" on the Restoration Necromancer as PvX suggested but that make his artificial intelligence -really- schizophrenic. I've also tried Blood Ritual on a primary Mesmer to make the 2 second cast more bearable and free up the elite slot, but the touch range qualification left much to be desired.)

I've replicated my current team build here:

http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Nanashi

It sort of works, but I think I've built myself into a corner and I suspect there's a much more efficient way of doing energy management (I've tried Aria+Lyric of Zeal, but it's not quite as good and something keeps spamming "Soothing Images" on Thackeray). I could really use some ideas or alternatives, if you have any!

For further reference since I might have testing bias, I have absolutely no experience with the Domain of Anguish, but I've been testing changes to my team build by clearing (and sometimes failing to clear) Normal Mode "Ravenheart Gloom" (Under recommendation from a friend). I should probably be testing in Hard Mode, but 1) I'm scared of it and 2) I want to maximise my Lightbringer Rank. The random Dervish bait might be a bit strange, but when I remove her, my failure rate on the first quest seems to go up significantly because I get too much "degeneration" pressure.

Thank you very much for your time!

Outerworld · Apr 12, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

You're specced too low into insp for it to be useful on the Ineptitude bar, I'd consider slotting Arcane Conumdrum or getting rid of the dom skills on it.
I'd swap drain ench for WNWN on the Shared bar, I havn't noticed heroes having any problems with it.
As for the PI bar; losing the Wastrels skill will help out with its energy alot.

FoxBat · Apr 12, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I've been playing around with BiP too. I don't think you want to kick inspiration skills entirely, think of BiP more as plugging holes in your emanage then being a substitute for it. Mez do use the ins skills but somewhat unreliably, so BiP just catches whichever 1 or 2 mez are being unreliable at the moment.

Swap inept and shared burden between the two mesmers, burden will still do its job at mid-spec, the energy on the bar will lighten up and you'll get more damage out of inep. Get rid of WW and calculated risk unless you like disable/micro, big energy hogs. Spiritual pain is fun but it's not much AoE damage for your energy (unless enemy rits), so is questionable unless you micro for certain occasions.

LifeInfusion · Apr 13, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Arcane conundrum, Waste not want not?

Mike Jack · Apr 13, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

GoLE could also work.

LexTalionis · Apr 13, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Thank you very much for your suggestions!

FoxBat: I tried your suggestion about removing Spiritual Pain but it didn't work out very well because I can't spike half as well anymore without the added damage. I usually rely on it to "spike" ritualists and monks, and I've grown reliant on its side-ability to kill spirits and minions extremely quickly (without it, leftover spirits after a battle usually distract minions when I am trying to move on). I guess the problem is that I wouldn't know what to replace it with! Energy Burn barely does much more damage and I am not a fan of mass Energy Surge (It does not prevent damage very well and is quite slow for a "spike damage" skill.)

Switching around Ineptitude and Shared Burden seems to have helped a little, thank you! However, Calculated Risk doesn't seem to be the large energy hog on that bar - it has a long duration and it is only 5 energy, most of her energy problems come from spamming Clumsiness (10 energy, short recharge). I'm thinking of removing that skill instead - it might not be necessary now that her bar has Ineptitude on it.

Outer World: Putting all of my points into inspiration only seems to raise the energy return of "Waste Not, Want Not" by 2 points to 12 instead of 10. I've tried Arcane Conundrum, but it's only effective when hitting large groups - it's pretty great in Ravenheart Gloom, but it's terrible when I have to kill single targets outside of it when doing the Zaishen dailies! I'll definitely consider putting "Waste Not, Want Not" on more bars, but the problem is that heroes don't seem to prioritise it until they're nearly out of energy.

Mike Jack · Apr 13, 2011, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Why would you want heroes to use it when they're at full energy?

LexTalionis · Apr 13, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I don't, but it'd be nice to use it as long as they could get the full benefit. As is, they don't usually use it until they're nearly out of energy, or things just die too quickly for them to use it at all.

The main problem is that I think I'm overreliant on BiP. It works well, but I have 3 people committed just to make it work, which doesn't give me much versatility when I need to bring X hero for Nightfall or if I need to fit in a friend.

I'm kind of in favour of shifting the burden of energy-management onto the rest of the team, but I was curious if other people had good ideas for that.

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Switching around Ineptitude and Shared Burden seems to have helped a little, thank you! However, Calculated Risk doesn't seem to be the large energy hog on that bar - it has a long duration and it is only 5 energy, most of her energy problems come from spamming Clumsiness (10 energy, short recharge).

What I mean more is that calculated risk hardly has the effect you want. On most melee mobs it procs maybe twice and then they are dead, and the amount it procs for is not that high when you have weakness and/or shelter up, plus it doesn't proc at all vs blind/block. The long duration is not that relevant except vs bosses, because your hero will spread it to every single living mob around. It's a very nice skill for bosses, or if you can land it on enemy eles, but vs your average melee groups you'd much rather have clumsiness hitting several at once. I often bring the skill on player bars but don't trust heroes with it, unless I'm particularly worried about a boss and then I disable it up to that point.

LexTalionis · Apr 13, 2011, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

What I mean more is that calculated risk hardly has the effect you want. On most melee mobs it procs maybe twice and then they are dead, and the amount it procs for is not that high when you have weakness and/or shelter up, plus it doesn't proc at all vs blind/block. The long duration is not that relevant except vs bosses, because your hero will spread it to every single living mob around. It's a very nice skill for bosses, or if you can land it on enemy eles, but vs your average melee groups you'd much rather have clumsiness hitting several at once. I often bring the skill on player bars but don't trust heroes with it, unless I'm particularly worried about a boss and then I disable it up to that point.

Ah, I see what you're trying to say. I don't really use Calculated Risk for the damage, but more for the 27 seconds or so of "Blurred Vision" it gives - it negates half of the attacks that I receive and what does get through is usually a lot less painful than eating every single attack from a high level physical attacker. I've stared at that hero's panel and I can say for certain that her energy problems aren't caused by Calculated Risk, but definitely more by spamming Clumsiness every 6 seconds.

I'm not too much a fan of Clumsiness because it does less damage than Wandering Eye, and the Area of Effect is smaller while costing twice as much to cast (although Wandering Eye only interrupts one target and has a longer recast). Are you sure it's a necessity?

After reading your post (where you mentioned Shelter), I've been trying a Soul Twisting ritualist instead of the Ether Renewal Protection and it's been working out very well despite the use of minions (I wasn't using one originally because I was under the impression that they didn't go together). I'm starting to dislike Ether Renewal because it clogs up the elite slot and he usually dies before there's much of a need to spam 10 energy protection spells.

Thank you very much for your suggestions. After a few tweaks, the only hero still having energy problems despite BiP is that Illusion mesmer! I'll try to find a happy medium.

HigherMinion · Apr 13, 2011, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Arcane conundrum, Waste not want not?

^This is actually the common solution. Where did you read PD/Leech were the norm? PD/WNWN or Arcane Con on Illus mes. Guilt is a bit meh for management. Drain Enchantment is nice, though conditional.

Leech in PvE isn't required, as there aren't really many mobs with res signet to rupt and you can kill through troll bottle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I've been playing around with BiP too.

I lol'd at this. Drop it! Drop it now!!

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

^This is actually the common solution. Where did you read PD/Leech were the norm? PD/WNWN or Arcane Con on Illus mes. Guilt is a bit meh for management. Drain Enchantment is nice, though conditional.

Leech in PvE isn't required, as there aren't really many mobs with res signet to rupt and you can kill through troll bottle.

I lol'd at this. Drop it! Drop it now!!

Any of you people do anything but theorycraft all day?

The "common solution" emanage on inept and panic mesmers is unreliable. They hover around 5e even with casters regardless of inspiration stuff or if you're running 1 or 5. Arcane conundrum is nice when it gets used, but it has a low priority with the AI. You need to add GoLE or look into drain deslusions pulling your important hexes to make a consistently self-sufficient mesmer. And things get really bad if you try and push damage with standard of wisdom.

The place you stick BiP is where other unremarkable elites go such as AotL, discord, jagged bones, pain of disenchantment, xinrae's weapon, icy veins, etc. You aren't exactly giving up much of value, and get more than that in return from your mesmers actually having energy to do things.

HigherMinion · Apr 13, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

No, not really. My mesmer heroes are always riding the 30e~ line generally with PD/WNWN. BiP is a bad elite when your heroes can already spam(note fastcast recharge for your rupt/insta-e skill) spells all day until next mob (at which time your energy regens by itself anyway).

LexTalionis · Apr 13, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I have to agree with Foxbat, I don't know what you're talking about.

Power Drain is not a good cumulative solution - it's reactive and it's countereffective when you have an active mesmer bar (i.e. you rely on Mesmer nukes and pre-interrupts). Panic alone works badly with Power Drain. It's a great skill, but it does not stack well - the more cast disruption/mesmers you use, the worse it is at Energy management. You simply can't expect to be casting it every time it's up, and half the time, your Mesmers are busy hexing things to death with active spells (this is the point of running "Mesway"). My particular brand of Mesway prioritizes not letting offensive casters get spells off at all by keeping Mistrust and Guilt up on them consistently (which is particularly effective on HM offensive casters). Power Drain is difficult to land on fast spells like enemy interrupts (Power Block, Cry of Frustration), especially since things cast so quickly in Hard Mode, but pre-interrupt hexes are still effective.

Waste Not, Want Not, looks like a solution on paper, but with an investment of 12 into Inspiration, it'd still return a net total of 7 energy over 15 seconds, which isn't enough to fuel active Mesmer nuking thanks to the nature of Fast Casting. The priority on it is also very sketchy - the best time to use it in Hard Mode is just after a Psychic Instability (which itself is also an interrupt that gets in the way of Power Drain) and heroes don't always prioritise it.

Arcane Conundrum is not a net energy returning method unless it hits 2 or more enemies (3 with low Illusion Magic). It costs 10 energy and is on a base 20 second recharge (around 14 with 10 fast casting). Given that it's an "adjacent" range hex and heroes won't even use it on non-casters, this is unreliable. I've had better results using Kitah's Burden or Auspicious Incantation over it (that's not a compliment).

As Foxbat says, with extended fights, the nature of Mesmer Hero AI in extended battles is for it to sit around 0-5 energy without external assistance. There really is nothing wrong with Blood is Power. It's a very nice skill for Mesmer nuking. I've just been refining my use of it with help from this thread.

Edit: I've done some testing and heroes DO use Arcane conundrum on non-spellcasters. However, they won't actively attempt to hit more than one foe with it and the 10 energy cost often means the hero is wasting 3 energy on a spell that does absolutely nothing to the target, so I'm not sure if this is a good thing.

Outerworld · Apr 13, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Illusion mesmer heroes I'll admit can be iffy energy wise but Dom bars should rarely struggle with just PD/WNWN.

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

As Foxbat says, with extended fights, the nature of Mesmer Hero AI in extended battles is for it to sit around 0-5 energy without external assistance.

There's the key. You won't see energy issues coming up while stomping through easy vanqs. But when pushing times against the high HPs of Raisu Palace (which has plenty of casters), it was a real issue. This is tooling your build for when regen "between mobs" is not a real factor.

Outerworld · Apr 13, 2011, 09:37 PM // 21:37

What? The fights within Raisu are hardly what I'd call extended and besides as I said earlier, Dom bars can handle energy relatively well even in these rare extended fights.

HigherMinion · Apr 13, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=210

Seeing as you mentioned Raisu... Check these builds out of yours, FoxbaD.

You're using quite alot of shutdown and Interrupts on this team build, let's take a look...
2x Cry of Frust
3x Power Drain
3x Mistrust

So for energy management you're arguing that PD/WNWN is bad? Well, I don't know if you noticed, but WNWN synergises with shutdown and PD is another interrupt. You must know this if you're using it yourself... Unless you ignored it and went lazymode/meta.

If you're using PD for your e-management; don't use Cry... 2 copies are just going to get in the way of your e-management. Not that you even need it, due to fights lasting mere seconds due to piling on Clumsiness, Wandering and E-Surge stacking.

A BiP would replace what? The MB's elite? It would accomplish even less than a hex/condition removal elite. OR Aotl.

FoxBat · Apr 13, 2011, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

What? The fights within Raisu are hardly what I'd call extended and besides as I said earlier, Dom bars can handle energy relatively well even in these rare extended fights.

Well perhaps "extended" because I was aggroing so there was never a break, debatable if that happens in "normal" play. Turns out it's faster to pull 3 groups to one position than running to them separately for example.

Panic, cry, mistrust, + shatter hex will have some issues, that's a load of ~4.5e/sec, with 1.3/sec regen and 2/sec regen from ins for a total of 3.3 assuming optimal waste not/power drains, which never happens. You can say "drop one 10e skill" but why forfeit damage instead of building around it?

Outerworld · Apr 13, 2011, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Panic, cry, mistrust, + shatter hex will have some issues, that's a load of ~4.5e/sec, with 1.3/sec regen and 2/sec regen from ins for a total of 3.3 assuming optimal waste not/power drains, which never happens. You can say "drop one 10e skill" but why forfeit damage instead of building around it?

-Panic doesn't do damage is pretty much unecessary for the vast majority of areas. E-surge would be of more use in these situations.
-Cry doesn't do fantastic damage anyway and its aoe potential feels redundant when with panic. You won't exactly lose alot of damage dropping this.
-Shatter is used for the hex removal really not the damage and isn't spamable enough to be a burden on energy.