Curse

Ira Blinks · Mar 12, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celain

Just a bit of a correction. Traps do cause mobs to flee.

Just to be totaly correct: that is knocked down and crippled mobs

kazujin · Mar 12, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Maybe we'll see some changes when Factions get released.

DarkerHelmet · Mar 12, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Personally I hate so called experienced groups. Mostly I travel to FoW and find it easy to get into a group as a monk (offcourse).

Sure the best builds will clear the area pretty fast, but there are numerous other builds that do good as well.

Sometimes I'm in a team that doesn't even make it to the book, do I care about that?. Not really, some people are pretty new to the game and walk into the same mistakes I used to make (like staying in harms way while it's pretty obvious you'll die if you don't RUN AWAY

. Everybody has to learn and/or have a chance to play the game.

As for the ele's, I think they are usefull and therefor a nice addition to any team. Necro's do better, I don't care. There are always sad people out there that think they are good and know what's best. I've noticed that this is more so in Warcamp then in ToA. Even if a SS necro does more damage, it will only take an ele a few moments longer, I don't see the problem, still can have fun with a team. I rather have a nice team then a team of arrogant bitches moaning on everything while both can clear the area and get nice loot.

ShadowMagus · Mar 12, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by [FnG] Lazz

Are you sure about it doing double damage with Arcane Echo? I just tried it with my Necro and its set to do 33 damage per hit, yet even with casting it again via Arcane Echo it remained at 33 damage.

It does not do double damage, you have 2 in effect, therefore doubling the effective damage delt. Your 33 damage delt is from a low curses skill. 16 curses gives spiteful 37 damage, while 18 ups it to 42.

Sir Skullcrasher · Mar 12, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Spiteful is devastatingly powerful, even without book/gear trick (why hasn't anyone mentioned proper aggroing? We know not..). However, in my opinion the best thing about SS (and what makes in shine especially in 2-3 man fow and uw runs) is that it is a single skill that gives continuous, high quality damage.

An ele, on the other hand, needs a large set of skills to continually cause harm. Nowadays I prefer support eles rather than pure damage, using water magic (blurred vision around a tank that hold aggro), wards, and such. The pure firepower is best left to spiking in PvP.

The heart of the problem is that a single SS necro has enough firepower to kill anything. Both the 3-man FoW and UW teams use 1 necro to level the entire map (although we use a warrior to apply a bit of the damage for FoW). SS, having only 10s recharge, is capable of just so much that an ele has been reduced from. The difficulty is balancing an ele so that they are neither too weak, or too capable.

I'll leave the question of how, if at all, they should be rebalanced to the eles..

To see true way to aggro and use SS go to the new tomb. Most group is either trapping group or different mix of classes like SS, MM, and others. Simply have a ranger or tank aggro one group than hit one of them with SS and you'll see how it work well even without these "cheats"

Boondocksaints · Mar 12, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

I have both and an SS necro and I disagree.... Here's why. With my Ele/ME I use Echo, Meteor Shower, Glyph of Sacrifice and the echoed meteor shpwer for two Showers simultaneously without dealing with exhaustion. No SS necro can deal thatmuchdamage at the same time at once.

WasAGuest · Mar 12, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

It's in my opinion that the AI in general is kinda broken and we are in need of a more point based aggro system. Here's what I mean:

Broken AI - yea it's broken. Not for the reasons that the AI runs out of AoE damage, but because they run out of AoE damage unconditionally and then forget who they were after.
Example, an ele with zero fire magic can cast lava font and "shoo" all foes off of him/her. This zero point lava font does nearly no damage at all but serves it's point. The mobs will now chase after someone else.

How to fix? Keep reading:
Point based aggro system - Each point of damage done to a mob should gain the player "aggro points". Each point of health healed should gain "aggro points". The higher the players aggro, the more attention is draws. Or, another way to do it, each skill gains aggro points and each skill would be different in the amount of points "earned". Hexes, interupts, poisons, bleeding (all effects) could be made to have a higher aggro points (we all know mesmers are a pain in the ....).

Conditional AoE fleeing - if damage done to an enemy is higher than it's current aggro then it flees. If the damage is less, then it stays and continues to attack.

What this does is gives some power back to ele's and their AoE spells; it removes the "shoo" effect of zero point AoE spells (like the example above with lava font); it provides (in an effect) a way for players to hold aggro through the use of skills and spells; it also adds a more tactical way of casting spells (gotta think more before you just spam away all your spells, thus pulling aggro from the warriors).

How is this better? Someone asked me once if I would run from a AoE spell if I was standing in it. The answer is and was conditional. If my target is almost dead, or is causing problems to the group and needs to be removed, I will consider the amount of damage I am taking at that time. If it's a zero point lava font, I will surely stay and fight. If it's a Metero Shower, watch me scramble out of it's way. Players can think that way, the AI can't. So a simulated condition need be entered. Dmg vs aggro would be a good way I think and it can be balanced to the AI pretty well (I would think).

Is this on topic? Yes. Ele's would be made once more, a high damage output source, but they would have to be thoughtful in how they do it.

What do you think?

Edit: Apparently I can't spell in the morning, so went back and fixed some typos.

Vilaptca · Mar 12, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Does anyone realize that we're comparing a Elite spell to a normal one?

I would sure hope the Elite one would be stronger...otherwise...why have it elite? Sure there are some that suck, but why complain about the ones that are actually good.

Eles are still useful. PUGs are just retarded. Someone posts a build on a forum, everyone sees it works good, and for the next 4 months, thats the only build you can play in that area with a PUG, otherwise you're a noob for trying to do otherwise.

ShadowMagus · Mar 12, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor hammerbane

Yea this is a real annoyance...ele's are for nuking, and they can't even do that effectively anymore. Not only did a-net stop farming, but they rendered a class practically useless.

Read the above posts - nuking was one of the elementalists WEAKEST atributes, as long as they are played apropriatly.

I am f***en tired of people trying their mainstream builds that "work"

I specialize in the warrior and the necromancer.

I do NOT tank - my warrior is capable of doing an average of 30 dmg a second to warriors and 50+ per second to casters in FoW - and with a pair of competent monks, I will not ever die.

Minion Master and Spiteful Spirit are among my most hated skills of all time. I still use Spiteful because it is an exelent damage dealer, but I strongly prefer Feast of Corruption for my AoE. In addition, I usualy play the necromancer as they are supposed to be played - a f***en support character. My most powerful and successful PvP build is a N/Me with NO damaging skills whatsoever - in 4v4 teams when I use this particular build, my team wins on average 75% more often than it does if I went as a damage dealer. Necromancers are easly among the most powerful characters in the game because, out of all the casters, they can do anything, and often better than others. A necromancer can drasticly reduce the damage output of any character class, effectivly "healing" at least 50% of what the monk would be doing - combine with a monk secondary and they heal nearly as well as a monk. Necromancers have exelent spike and AoE damage spells, and a N/E can launch an endless stream of nukes in PvE enviroment because they will NEVER run out of energy. Combine necromancer with mesmer secondary, and you have the single most powerful combination to eleminate the offensive and defensive capabilities of the opposing team.

Back to elementalists - yes, their skill selection and name hints twards nuking, and alternate builds are difficult because of limited skill selection, however they are a close second to necromancers in build variety if you pay attention to the combinations available and use the appropriate secondary proffession. I have not played elementalists extensivly so I cannot acuratly quote what they can do, but I have played them, and fire nuking, even before the AI "upgrade", was one of my lesser used builds.

Now for anet...
If you think making mobs run away from over time aoe effects is an AI increase, you are f***en retarded. Get rid of this effect, and replace it with an acual AI upgrade - remove programmed patrols and mobs, add in the ability to acualy make decisions. Currently, I am a begining programer so I cannot tell you how to do this, but I can tell you it CAN be done - if you need instructions, go ask Bethesta Softworks how they made Radiant AI work for Oblivion (comming out on march 21, 2006, delayed due to a bug and unexpectly large amount of orders from origenal release date last november)
Also, I agree with you removing the 20/20 rockmolder, as it was a overpowered item and "bugged", because its mods where not available to normal items - but if you remove something, REMOVE IT, dont f***en leave it in the game, but stop it from dropping - if you alter the item - alter all of them, not just future drops. The same goes for the Henge of Denravi +5 energy sword, eather remove all of them, or put them back in the game. Personaly, I would like to see the HoD sword put back into the game, because although it is powerful, it is not overly so.
If your so concerned about creating a enjoyable play enviroment without bugs or exploits, why can people still obtain thousands of althea's ashes to sell to the noobs and the lazy bastards that populate the game? And also why in all your skill updates, nearly half your changes make skills drasticly underpowered, and the rest overpowered? - Try to find a f***en balance in the damn skills. Further, reducing the attack speed of I Will Avenge You from 33% to 25% is not "nerfing" it, as you have led us all to believe you would do. Also, altering how a single enchantment works without altering its skill discription does not help eather. Return Order of the Vampire to how it worked previously - personaly I find this skill quite worthless, as Order of Pain is just as effective for most builds, and frees up an elite skill slot for Offering of Blood, Healing Hands, or other very usefull skills. A simple and extreamly effective solution to IWAY is to change the skill discription from "all dead allies" to "all dead party members", and change the effect to match the new skill description. On another account, the 10% sacrafice for Ofering of Blood was overpowered and needed to be changed, but its current 20% is far to high. My recomendation is 15%.
Next time you make changes to skills, acualy think it through before doing so, and PLEASE TEST IT.

OK, I am done ranting.

For now.

glountz · Mar 12, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Yep (to Vilaptca).
But SS is still AoE and monsters should flee from it. In PvP (arenas, SS is only used here), I don't stand near the SSed warrior while he's killing himself in addition of me. I flee. Monsters should do the same. I don't mean SS is overpowered, just that mobs don't consider it as an AoE, which is wrong (Mark of Pain does, why not SS?).
I would say the same for Wells. My necro MM often carry Well of Suffering.
It's also an AoE degen completely ignored by mobs, and is really powerful when cleverly applied (as a starter, with a tank holding aggro in it, in addition of SS-often better than using your first corpse as a minion which will more likely die quickly).
Every clever player leave from this kind of wells, why not the mobs?

ShadowMagus · Mar 12, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

SS is CONDITIONAL AoE damage. This is the reason mobs do not scatter from it. All one-time hit AoE damage, and most conditional Aoe do not cause mobs to scatter (only exeption I can think of at the moment is mark of pain, but that can be explained because naboring monsters dont have control over it). Something has to happen before conditional effects do something - in Spiteful's case, the hexed creature must attack or use a skill. As such, mobs should not scatter from these effects. However, any competent warrior will stop attacking as soon as he realizes he has Spiteful on him, unless he has a good reason to do so otherwise. Monsters should do the same, although not immedeatly, because they should follow the same rules as players, meaning they have to acualy take a few hits usualy before they realise it is there. The same should be applied to effects such as Soul Leach and Backfire, conditional effectes triggered by the targets actions.
Mark of Pain is not controlled by the targets getting hit by it, and as such, they move away from the source - the hexed monster, not the caster, as, once again, any skilled human player would do once they realise what is going on, unless they have reasons not to.

Only thing I can say is, GET YOUR F***EN AI TO ACUALY BE INTELEGENCE, NOT PROGRAMMED INSTRUCTIONS!

If you do not believe that is possable, go f***en look at Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, by Bethesta Softworks, and research their Radiant AI technology, and be proven rong. Their NPC's are given GENERAL goals, and decide by themselves how to accomplish them, not using programmed instructions, but acual artificial intelegence.

The same should be applied to mob behaviour - no programed patrols to be repeated, unless it makes sence such as a golem. Have them wander how they decide, not how the program says. This should also be applied to their agro and combat behaviour - they tend to attack casters first, which can be used by a skilled group to make killing them much faster and easyer than it otherwise would be. As I stated above, warriors can be exeptional damage dealers, and are relativly weak against elemental damage, while casters are often primary targets for monks to focus on, because the warrior is never hit due to all agro going to casters.

Edit: Forgot to mention - anet, implement a F***EN Z AXIS - as the game is currently setup, all combat is 2-dimentional. AND DO IT SOON!
It doesnt make sence that, although my target is 15 feet above me, I can still hit it with my axe because im on the same xy square as it.

jciardha · Mar 12, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Dear OP:

Play what you enjoy. If you like playing an elementalist, then play one. Who cares what other people think? There is no reason why you should have to conform to someone else's demands. You paid for the game, so you should play what you want.

~ Signed,
An unrepentant mesmer

Ira Blinks · Mar 12, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

ShadowMagus
you sir are arrogant, impatient and have no clue.

1) GW is a game where gold and time to create a new character is not an issue, thus people dont need "good" stuff, they need best. Second best _is_ worthless.

2) Somehow GW class description disagrees with you on the fact that eles are not supposed to do lots of damage. And while horribly failing at it eles being wacked, interrupted, degened and simply ignored by all other clases except maybe monks.

3) Populars builds _are_ good. Something that is not popular is either good and will quickly become popular or worthless and will serve as way to make up lame excuses.

4) As rather experienced programmer I can only advise you to go and study your subject harder. In particular security vs performance issue of AI in online games. Also I have to remind you that GW doesnt have monthly fees, so you should be happy that it is being patched and updated at all.

wiz12268 · Mar 12, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Does anyone realize that we're comparing a Elite spell to a normal one?

I would sure hope the Elite one would be stronger...otherwise...why have it elite? Sure there are some that suck, but why complain about the ones that are actually good.

Eles are still useful. PUGs are just retarded. Someone posts a build on a forum, everyone sees it works good, and for the next 4 months, thats the only build you can play in that area with a PUG, otherwise you're a noob for trying to do otherwise.

The only ele "elite" compareable to SS is Thunderclap, and YOU have to cause the damage for it to take effect (which isn't more damage but simply a knockdown)AND you lose energy to boot or the skill ends.

The only damage(offensive) causing elites for Ele suck basically. They are Lightening surge (causes exhaustion),Mind Burn (exhaustion), Mind Freeze (exhastion), and Water Trident, and wouldn't even consider that an elite. The only reason it is is probably because it is cheap and it recharges fast (in comparison to the other ele skills).

ELE elites suck, plain and simple. Basically the one that are any good are for energy management/conservation, totally lost on a class that can have 100+ energy in the first place. So wasted IMO. Basically people use them to buff up bonding (or they did before another nerf awhile ago) or to spam heals all day long (clearly not ele) What good does more energy do an ele when he is waiting for skills to recharge anyways?

The class is totally screwed up, and basically because ANET screwed with them too much.

Try making SS cause exhaustion or have it cost energy for each time it triggers(like TC), then see what happens to those SS builds. Even with a battery it would be difficult.

There is only one ele skill that ingores armor altogether and that is crystal Wave, but even that has a "negative" effect as it removes all conditions on foes. And it is a one shot deal with a 20 second recharge.

SS is not really overpowered as I alluded to before, but simply the AI on it is bad. Even with Zealots if you cast too fast the monsters take off. So why not SS? But then if they do that then I am sure they would probably make mobs stop attacking someone with SOJ on them as well. Which would really hinder the 55 builds.

The AI isn't really AI. It is basically appeasement to players who couldn't figure out how to do something so they cried til it was nerfed. Pretty soon all the skills hat are any good will be nerfed and we will be left with nothing.

SisterMercy · Mar 12, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowMagus

In addition, I usualy play the necromancer as they are supposed to be played - a f***en support character...

They also have the second highest armor in the game and several by-touch skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowMagus

Now for anet...
If you think making mobs run away from over time aoe effects is an AI increase, you are f***en retarded...

Be civil, please. At least try to come up with a constuctive alternative, like WasAGuest did.

MalVeauX · Mar 12, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Eles are still totally fine. I think everyone is just too hung up on wanting to be an echo-nuker of some kind. This isn't the sole "good" role of an elementalist in PvE and in PvP we know that doesn't even work.

Water Magic and Earth Magic are very useful. Slowing mobs and breaking them up is pretty good in PvE.

I guess everyone is just hung up in "damage."

Cheers!

ShadowMagus · Mar 12, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

2) Somehow GW class description disagrees with you on the fact that eles are not supposed to do lots of damage.

Class description does not matter, skill description is what counts in how the class operates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

3) Populars builds _are_ good. Something that is not popular is either good and will quickly become popular or worthless and will serve as way to make up lame excuses.

I dont tend to see many people using Lingering Curse often, a skill that has been and remains one of the most powerful there are for PvP - strips all enchantments, target gains only half health from healing, AND 10 second recharge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

4) As rather experienced programmer I can only advise you to go and study your subject harder. In particular security vs performance issue of AI in online games. Also I have to remind you that GW doesnt have monthly fees, so you should be happy that it is being patched and updated at all.

I can easly see how security could prove an issue, however it does not prevent such AI to a lesser degree, and I am shure it could be overcome fairly easly if people would think about it. Calling fixed programed instructions intelegence is very nearly the most retarded thing I have heard recently.

Kakumei · Mar 12, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowMagus

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, by Bethesta Softworks, and research their Radiant AI technology, and be proven rong. Their NPC's are given GENERAL goals, and decide by themselves how to accomplish them, not using programmed instructions, but acual artificial intelegence.

Odd, I didn't think this game had come out yet. How could you recommend they go play it? In fact, how do you know this 'ai' actually works as advertised?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowMagus

I dont tend to see many people using Lingering Curse often, a skill that has been and remains one of the most powerful there are for PvP - strips all enchantments, target gains only half health from healing, AND 10 second recharge?

Lingering Curse is also elite and costs 25 energy.

The dumb in this thread is pretty overpowering.

Ira Blinks · Mar 12, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Lingering Curse is also elite and costs 25 energy.

... and 3 seconds cast time begging for interrupt.

ShadowMagus · Mar 12, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Odd, I didn't think this game had come out yet. How could you recommend they go play it? In fact, how do you know this 'ai' actually works as advertised?

I never said to go play it - I said to go look at it, research how it was done, and maby make an attemt at talking to Bethesta and see if they are willing to share any ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Lingering Curse is also elite and costs 25 energy.

The dumb in this thread is pretty overpowering.

And this skill would still remain powerful if it cost 30 energy.
I have personaly tested this extensivly, and 25 energy is not a heavy cost for the effect of this skill. It is one of the most successful elites I have used in PvP, and as I have stated before, I specialize in the necromancer - I have over 350 hours of play logged with soly my necromancer, and I have done massive amounts of experamenting with builds.
Im fairly certain I have tried most of the builds possable out there.

Another underused skill would be chillbanes - an AoE enchantment remover with fast cast time and 15 second recharge is also worth the 25 energy cost, although it must be used far more carfuly due to the poison. Note, Spellbreaker is another underused but powerful skill in PvP, and chillbanes is the only effective way to remove it, only other possable way being well of the profane.
I also dont commonly see Weaken Armor being used. Now how much damage does 20 less armor effectivly add again...?

Such skills often prove to be what enable you to kill the opponent instead of the other way around, and I very rairly have to worry about my energy with a good setup, although personaly I am not a huge fan of chillbanes.