Curse

UnChosen · May 28, 2010, 01:04 AM // 01:04

So much theory talk, when there's a far easier way to tell that Eles are way underpowered in damage.

Just grab a team consisting of mostly eles as damage dealers, and go vanquish various areas in HM. Then repeat with teams consisting of mostly the other classes. No cons and PvE skills, and no "farming" builds such as those that use obsidian earth or the speed clears builds.

The teams comprised of mostly eles is always the slowest by a huge margin. And that's ALREADY enough of a reason that ele needs a buff. I don't care if you can make the damage decent with cracked armor + Mindbender + AP + 40/40 and whatever ridiculous amount of support skills....If the damage is not outclassing supposed support classes (Mesmers, Rits, Necros, Monks) by a huge amount something is wrong.

NerfHerder · May 28, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

"But it would be nice if Ele's got an Earth Equivalent of SF Nuker."

Then nobody would use fire.

Sure they would. Every Element has something to bring to the table. Fire has Burning, Air has Cracked Armor, Earth has Weakness, and Water has Hex/Snare.

Just for an example, change Stone Sheath to deal 10...82...100 Earth damage to nearby foes and cause Weakness for 1...6...7 seconds and give the same energy, cost, and recharge as SF. Add Glowstone, and you would have an Earth version of SF Nuker.

Change Invoke Lightning to cause dmg to nearby foes and Cracked Armor for 1...6...7 seconds. Of course you would have to up the energy and recharge time or it would be way OP. Then make Shock Arrow trigger energy gain with Cracked Armor.

Make Shatterstone cause dmg to nearby foes and snare for decreased movement speed for 3 seconds.

And there you have 3 alternate elemental ways to be an SF Nuker, Just in a different way. The beauty here is that none of them have the degen ability of Burning so SF would still be desired.

Edit: I thought this post was about how to bring the Ele back to pre power creep standards not prove every other poster is wrong and insult them. Lets keep the discussion to ideas not opinions.

Jeydra · May 28, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

I call it burst damage or spike damage. What else can you call it? Just as I expected people don't know what DPS stands for.

GWW source also says that Eles can deal biggest damage in a single spell which is partially true.

A well-buffed Sun and Moon Slash does 500 damage x2. What is that compared to the best an Elementalist can do?

Read the GWW source again it says "single strike", not "single spell".

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Oh, because it not recharging every pull like you claim means I had something to do with it, not that the skill isn't unreliable, oh no. 10% chance of instant recharge ALWAYS HAPPENS.

You're just a f'rigging troll, and an idiot besides, but anyway.

Once again, the world doesn't revolve around you. Allow for a possibility that you failed.

"OMG! LOOK! I failed so that AoS didn't recharge my skills!" - That's not going to help your case. I don't know where you tested, how you tested or if you tested at all.

Oh and sure, just because I disagree with you whiner I'm a troll. What a nice way of thinking. *clappity* Then you're a friggin' noob.

Quote:

You're either lying or never pay attention or never do sc's in hard mode. A warrior, paragon, or ranger type mob in hard mode will reduce your ticks on searing heat from 42 to under 20, guaranteed. In Normal mode they would without cracked armor in fact.

Like yourself? No I would probably be as clueless if that was the case. You may wonder how I know that you don't have a clue about SCs and in fact never played them. Well for a start it is evident by how you interpreted SH as Searing Heat instead of Savannah Heat - A skill commonly used by Ele Spikers in SCs. You don't even know the builds, there is no way you have done any serious SCing. Like T4 way FoW for instance.

Quote:

as to using a water or air build in destroyer instances.. air potentially but then you're stuck with single target damage in a situation where people want aoe.

Then by all means do carry on going against Destroyers with a Fire build. Just don't cry that you're not dealing enough damage after. Lol

Quote:

However water? You'd best be joking. They're not really vulnerable to water they're just not as resistant to it as other elements, which is to say, they still have 120 armor vs it. Water magic damage is already lower than the rest due to Anets thinking the snares make up for it, which, they do, in pvp, or 5 years ago when people were just trying to get content done and weren't trying to care much about getting it done quickly and efficiently.

I like Air and Earth Magic. The support those two can provide in general PvE is astounding. Like I said before, you shouldn't neglect Ele support functions. Fire is good, but you have to have a certain degree of organization in your team in order to make it completely efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

A well-buffed Sun and Moon Slash does 500 damage x2. What is that compared to the best an Elementalist can do?

Read the GWW source again it says "single strike", not "single spell".

Hence why I said partially.

Axel Zinfandel · May 28, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

A well-buffed Sun and Moon Slash does 500 damage x2.

ahahaha got proof of that?

maxxfury · May 28, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

ahahaha got proof of that?

Judges insight, soh, ascan ect on fendi (insert random undead here)
..pics around here somewhere

its pretty easy to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

"OMG! LOOK! I failed so that AoS didn't recharge my skills!" - That's not going to help your case. I don't know where you tested, how you tested or if you tested at all.

Sadly, the recharge only been a 5%(?) chance per proc(on a kill) its entirely possible that it never procced and left him, helpless and flailing with no ready skills.

Hell sometimes when i used to do raptors, id not get a single recharge proc :O on the full group of about 40? other times ive got half a dozen.

Its just bad luck not been bad. Random is as random does! nothing you can do to improve the chances of a recharge..other than take on a bigger group.

Other than that..carry on

interesting thread.

UnChosen · May 28, 2010, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Once again, the world doesn't revolve around you. Allow for a possibility that you failed.

"OMG! LOOK! I failed so that AoS didn't recharge my skills!" - That's not going to help your case. I don't know where you tested, how you tested or if you tested at all.

Oh and sure, just because I disagree with you whiner I'm a troll. What a nice way of thinking. *clappity* Then you're a friggin' noob.

Like yourself? No I would probably be as clueless if that was the case. You may wonder how I know that you don't have a clue about SCs and in fact never played them. Well for a start it is evident by how you interpreted SH as Searing Heat instead of Savannah Heat - A skill commonly used by Ele Spikers in SCs. You don't even know the builds, there is no way you have done any serious SCing. Like T4 way FoW for instance.

Then by all means do carry on going against Destroyers with a Fire build. Just don't cry that you're not dealing enough damage after. Lol

I like Air and Earth Magic. The support those two can provide in general PvE is astounding. Like I said before, you shouldn't neglect Ele support functions. Fire is good, but you have to have a certain degree of organization in your team in order to make it completely efficient.

Other class can Damage AND support WITHOUT any sort of help like AoS or 40/40. Either way, all you've been trying to proof is that Ele could do decent damage with the help of X, Y, and Z. Ele had to carry Mindbender, X attunement, Cracked armor inflicting skill, AP/AoS, just for decent DPS....wait, add an anti-interrupt skill because so many ele skills have >2s cast time...and a REZ if you actually play smart and don't expect the monk to do everything.

That leaves TWO FREAKING SLOT for eles to do anything else. And that is assuming none of your enchantments get stripped. Want guarantee? Add a cover enchant....One slot left

, have fun deciding which skills to fit in.

And Decent damage is not enough. It should be SUPERIOR damage, simply because its an ele, and 90% of their skills are straight up damage. If anything they can NERF the other 10% of Ele support skills in PvE so that the other 90% can actually outclass the other casters at damage, just to shut down the annoying "but ele can support (poorly)" argument.

Seriously the way you're arguing against this, you should go onto the mesmer update thread and protest your heart out, because its all the same argument that had been used to defend mesmers to death until years later when people finally got Anet to do something about it.

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Other class can Damage AND support WITHOUT any sort of help like AoS or 40/40. Either way, all you've been trying to proof is that Ele could do decent damage with the help of X, Y, and Z. Ele had to carry Mindbender, X attunement, Cracked armor inflicting skill, AP/AoS, just for decent DPS....wait, add an anti-interrupt skill because so many ele skills have >2s cast time...and a REZ if you actually play smart and don't expect the monk to do everything.

That leaves TWO FREAKING SLOT for eles to do anything else. And that is assuming none of your enchantments get stripped. Want guarantee? Add a cover enchant....One slot left

, have fun deciding which skills to fit in.

And Decent damage is not enough. It should be SUPERIOR damage, simply because its an ele, and 90% of their skills are straight up damage. If anything they can NERF the other 10% of Ele support skills in PvE so that the other 90% can actually outclass the other casters at damage, just to shut down the annoying "but ele can support (poorly)" argument.

Seriously the way you're arguing against this, you should go onto the mesmer update thread and protest your heart out, because its all the same argument that had been used to defend mesmers to death until years later when people finally got Anet to do something about it.

No, I been saying they are part of SC meta. Which they are. There is nothing wrong with using skills like AoS or cons because any spiker would have to use them regardless. You won't be running around naked just spamming your skills. Nobody takes cover enchants in SCs.

As for Mesmers I see why people protested. I also see why people wanted a PvE buff. At any rate, you must be a complete idiot to say that Eles are in the same shape now as Mesmers used to be.

Rest of the stuff you said makes no sense. Probably a combination of bad theorycrafting and cluelessness as well.

Arato · May 28, 2010, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Once again, the world doesn't revolve around you. Allow for a possibility that you failed.

"OMG! LOOK! I failed so that AoS didn't recharge my skills!" - That's not going to help your case. I don't know where you tested, how you tested or if you tested at all.

Oh and sure, just because I disagree with you whiner I'm a troll. What a nice way of thinking. *clappity* Then you're a friggin' noob.

Like yourself? No I would probably be as clueless if that was the case. You may wonder how I know that you don't have a clue about SCs and in fact never played them. Well for a start it is evident by how you interpreted SH as Searing Heat instead of Savannah Heat - A skill commonly used by Ele Spikers in SCs. You don't even know the builds, there is no way you have done any serious SCing. Like T4 way FoW for instance.

Then by all means do carry on going against Destroyers with a Fire build. Just don't cry that you're not dealing enough damage after. Lol

I like Air and Earth Magic. The support those two can provide in general PvE is astounding. Like I said before, you shouldn't neglect Ele support functions. Fire is good, but you have to have a certain degree of organization in your team in order to make it completely efficient.

Hence why I said partially.

Yes because I can personally do something that makes it so a 10% chance doesn't work. You're absolutely the dumbest troll I've ever heard of. That must mean if someone doesn't win the lottery that they must have bought the ticket the wrong way, it can't possibly be because it's a random chance.

We're designed as a damage class, Rits, Mesmers, Monks, and Necros were support classes. The fact that now we're supposed to take up the support class role while they take on the damage roles is absurd.

I know that SH is savannah heat I was giving the example of searing heat because savannah heat's pulses increase every second, searing heat's pulses are consistant. I was giving the figure for consistancy's sake.

Essence Snow · May 28, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

GWW source also says that Eles can deal biggest damage in a single spell which is partially true.

Well everyone knows this is false. In NM and HM eles are out done by a PvE skill when it hits. Yep u guessed it Ebon Sniper Support...2k+ in nm pretty sure nothing comes close to it.

Jeydra · May 28, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Hence why I said partially.

Are you claiming Elementalists deal the most damage of all professions in a single spell?

Also: do you concede now that your statement that "Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class" is completely wrong?

Cuilan · May 28, 2010, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

There's a few reasons for that. First off, burning as a source of damage isn't always reliable because there are mobtypes that are immune to it (destroyers, fire elementals), and because there's a cap on degen. [...] Not to mention, every other class that has been taking Ele's place as a nuker in situations where Eles are inferior choices for it (seriously if I was running a PuG for a destroyer instance, I'd turn away any elementalist who tried to join.

I didn't realize Destroyers made up 99% of the game's content. They don't and there's Winter or other elements. Really hard to take anything you say seriously when you make complete exaggerations.

If you don't like ele damage, don't use it. Dervish and paragons need the most help.

Arato · May 28, 2010, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I didn't realize Destroyers made up 99% of the game's content. They don't and there's Winter or other elements. Really hard to take anything you say seriously when you make complete exaggerations.

If you don't like ele damage, don't use it. Dervish and paragons need the most help.

Dervish does need help, however Paragons have been built from the ground up as a party support class that aids with shouts and chants and that's exactly what they do, perhaps motivation is underwhelming, but imbagons are ungodly party support.

If elementalists had been built from the ground up to be Ether Renewal bonders and support, and not damage, than I wouldn't be arguing right now about them needing to be updated.

BTW even with winter, Destroyers have 100+ armor vs cold damage in hard mode. That means no matter what element you use, you do pathetic damage.

Daesu · May 28, 2010, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

No, I been saying they are part of SC meta. Which they are. There is nothing wrong with using skills like AoS or cons because any spiker would have to use them regardless. You won't be running around naked just spamming your skills. Nobody takes cover enchants in SCs.

Let me fix that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Culian

I didn't realize SCs made up 99% of the game's content. They don't. Really hard to take anything you say seriously when you make complete exaggerations.

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Are you claiming Elementalists deal the most damage of all professions in a single spell?

Also: do you concede now that your statement that "Eles were never supposed to be a heavy DPS class" is completely wrong?

Possibly if you look purely at the damage value. No, it doesn't make my statement wrong. Simply because damage from a single strike may be high, doesn't mean that damage can be maintained over a certain period of time. There are casting times and there are recharge times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

.

2/10 - You get 2 points for the effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Yes because I can personally do something that makes it so a 10% chance doesn't work. You're absolutely the dumbest troll I've ever heard of. That must mean if someone doesn't win the lottery that they must have bought the ticket the wrong way, it can't possibly be because it's a random chance.

Yes, like fail for example. Tell me where and how you tested, what are the statistic otherwise it's pretty pointless. If you want to treat AoS like a lottery ticket then there should be lottery draw every mob killed so in case of SCs it means 10+ lottery draws at once. At any rate I did thousands of SCs and have yet to see AoS not recharging all of my skills on a spike.

Quote:

We're designed as a damage class, Rits, Mesmers, Monks, and Necros were support classes. The fact that now we're supposed to take up the support class role while they take on the damage roles is absurd.

Depends. Ele spikers are SC meta. SCs are an important part of high end PvE. I already told you that the type of damage Eles have requires some degree of organization which casual HM pugs don't have.

Quote:

I know that SH is savannah heat I was giving the example of searing heat because savannah heat's pulses increase every second, searing heat's pulses are consistant. I was giving the figure for consistancy's sake.

No you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be making excuses right now.

UnChosen · May 28, 2010, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Yes because I can personally do something that makes it so a 10% chance doesn't work. You're absolutely the dumbest troll I've ever heard of. That must mean if someone doesn't win the lottery that they must have bought the ticket the wrong way, it can't possibly be because it's a random chance.

We're designed as a damage class, Rits, Mesmers, Monks, and Necros were support classes. The fact that now we're supposed to take up the support class role while they take on the damage roles is absurd.

I know that SH is savannah heat I was giving the example of searing heat because savannah heat's pulses increase every second, searing heat's pulses are consistant. I was giving the figure for consistancy's sake.

Eles doesn't even make a good support class. The only good support skills they have that does not have superior alternatives in other classes are blinding surge and flash...and these two had been CONTINUOUSLY nerfed over and over because of PvP without a split.

Aegis/Shadow of Fear/ > Ward against melee/Blurred vision
Enfeebling blood >>> Enervating Charge/Ward of Weakness/Ebon Hawk
Maelstrome....haven't worked for years ever since scatter was implemented.
And a HUGE list of snares that are really have no use in PvE anyways since nothing kites...unless you use one of the many DoTAoE scatter spells to make them kite *roll eyes*. Not to mention there's no point in snaring when minion masters or spirit spammers are around.

That leaves what? Rust...lololol making foes cast signet slower is so useful. Eruption...25 energy 2 second cast for blind, seriously if there's enough melee around someone for that to be useful, I would rather the ele does NOTHING and don't freaking scatter the mob so that other classes can annihilate the mob in 5 second with non-scattering armor ignoring AoE spells.

Pretty much the only useful "support" ele can do is inflicting cracked armor which is mostly relevant to the eles themselves in the first place.

Have fun trying to figure out a specific scenario in 1% of the game where ele support is actually useful.

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Eles doesn't even make a good support class. The only good support skills they have that does not have superior alternatives in other classes are blinding surge and flash...and these two had been CONTINUOUSLY nerfed over and over because of PvP without a split.

Aegis/Shadow of Fear/ > Ward against melee/Blurred vision
Enfeebling blood >>> Enervating Charge/Ward of Weakness/Ebon Hawk
Maelstrome....haven't worked for years ever since scatter was implemented.
And a HUGE list of snares that are really have no use in PvE anyways since nothing kites...unless you use one of the many DoTAoE scatter spells to make them kite *roll eyes*. Not to mention there's no point in snaring when minion masters or spirit spammers are around.

That leaves what? Rust...lololol making foes cast signet slower is so useful. Eruption...25 energy 2 second cast for blind, seriously if there's enough melee around someone for that to be useful, I would rather the ele does NOTHING and don't freaking scatter the mob so that other classes can annihilate the mob in 5 second with non-scattering armor ignoring AoE spells.

Pretty much the only useful "support" ele can do is inflicting cracked armor which is mostly relevant to the eles themselves in the first place.

Support roles =/= support skills. Also UG, Earth, ER.

Quote:

Have fun trying to figure out a specific scenario in 1% of the game where ele support is actually useful.

General Hard Mode.

Arato · May 28, 2010, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Eles doesn't even make a good support class. The only good support skills they have that does not have superior alternatives in other classes are blinding surge and flash...and these two had been CONTINUOUSLY nerfed over and over because of PvP without a split.

Aegis/Shadow of Fear/ > Ward against melee/Blurred vision
Enfeebling blood >>> Enervating Charge/Ward of Weakness/Ebon Hawk
Maelstrome....haven't worked for years ever since scatter was implemented.
And a HUGE list of snares that are really have no use in PvE anyways since nothing kites...unless you use one of the many DoTAoE scatter spells to make them kite *roll eyes*. Not to mention there's no point in snaring when minion masters or spirit spammers are around.

That leaves what? Rust...lololol making foes cast signet slower is so useful. Eruption...25 energy 2 second cast for blind, seriously if there's enough melee around someone for that to be useful, I would rather the ele does NOTHING and don't freaking scatter the mob so that other classes can annihilate the mob in 5 second with non-scattering armor ignoring AoE spells.

Pretty much the only useful "support" ele can do is inflicting cracked armor which is mostly relevant to the eles themselves in the first place.

Have fun trying to figure out a specific scenario in 1% of the game where ele support is actually useful.

Wards, Tanking, Knockdowns, Blindness, Weakness, if you're only counting ele primary skills. Snares I guess too in the water line but I've (not in recent memory anyway) heard of a group asking for a water ele. Maybe for some very niche situations such as doing masters in Moddok Crevice (mind freeze 1, glyphsac deep freeze the other), but I haven't actually seen it. Most the time if a snare is needed, a VOR mesmer or some other caster will just take deep freeze with 0-2 water magic investment, still get full effect of the snare.

But when most people talk about support, they mean E/Mo ER Infuse or Bonding.

As to the Air of Superiority question.. I was doing ToPK HM. there were large enough groups that I was getting procs quite often, it's just that most of the time I was getting "Bwahaha!" "You're no match for my brains!" "Knowledge is power!" "Kneel before your master!".. and not "Is there anything I can't do?"

It's just bad luck, but with only a 10% chance of getting that particular proc, the odds aren't in your favor. So most of the time I wound up staring at a bar all on cooldown except fireball which I took just to have *something* when instant recharges weren't happening.

Then again I have the kind of luck where I'll run 3-4 hard mode dungeons in a day and get a diamond and an onyx gemstone as my drops 3 out of the 4 times. (not a diamond OR an onyx gemstone.. a Diamond AND an onyx gemstone, IE worst possible drops)

Jeydra · May 28, 2010, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Possibly if you look purely at the damage value. No, it doesn't make my statement wrong. Simply because damage from a single strike may be high, doesn't mean that damage can be maintained over a certain period of time. There are casting times and there are recharge times.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=62

Most damage in a single spell indeed. Elementalists don't even spike very hard. At best you're looking at Lightning Orb = 140 damage + the two Norn shouts for 300 damage with Deep Wound, big whoop when Sun and Moon Slash can deal 1k damage, or a CritScythe Sin hit 500+ damage with an attack ("single strike").

Also read the description of Elementalists from GuildWiki.

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

As to the Air of Superiority question.. I was doing ToPK HM. there were large enough groups that I was getting procs quite often, it's just that most of the time I was getting "Bwahaha!" "You're no match for my brains!" "Knowledge is power!" "Kneel before your master!".. and not "Is there anything I can't do?"

It's just bad luck, but with only a 10% chance of getting that particular proc, the odds aren't in your favor. So most of the time I wound up staring at a bar all on cooldown except fireball which I took just to have *something* when instant recharges weren't happening.

Then again I have the kind of luck where I'll run 3-4 hard mode dungeons in a day and get a diamond and an onyx gemstone as my drops 3 out of the 4 times. (not a diamond OR an onyx gemstone.. a Diamond AND an onyx gemstone, IE worst possible drops)

Bad luck probably. Obviously you did ToPK, probably with a pug too. Do a SC like DoA and FoW, with non-terrible party and you will see what I mean. Chances of getting skill recharge proc are quite high if you kill about 10 foes at once. Maybe it works like drops and you can't get the same proc several times in a row between a certain time span.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=62

Most damage in a single spell indeed. Elementalists don't even spike very hard. At best you're looking at Lightning Orb = 140 damage + the two Norn shouts for 300 damage with Deep Wound, big whoop when Sun and Moon Slash can deal 1k damage, or a CritScythe Sin hit 500+ damage with an attack ("single strike").

Also read the description of Elementalists from GuildWiki.

42 or you take AoE damage into account all of a sudden?