Curse

Mike Jack · May 18, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Actually, the bars consist of 3-5 skills.

Anaraky · May 19, 2011, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Just take the concept into consideration, this is meant basically for afk play it is not the fastest or best team far from it, but it's safe and allows for mistakes.

If you don't have a bad connection you can do better than this.

(and this is in no way a jab at the build because I think it's quite awesome).

Agreed.

While the 2xDwaynas+ST rit concept is great in the areas with a moderate difficulty I feel it falls behind in the harder areas due to the fact that it is kinda unpredictable versus high spikes and high pressure. Most of the time it is fine but every once in a while the ST spirits are down for a second and you don't get ticks from the Dwaynas dervs someone tends to die. In areas without high pressure or with frail monsters this isn't a problem however.

My 2c.

hunter · May 19, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jack

Actually, the bars consist of 3-5 skills.

2 things i found annoying:

1) I used a BiP minion mancer, and i found that the AI was not as good with BiP as i had hoped. Keep i mind i took away all e management from my heroes and during long battles they would still run out of energy. What i see happening is that the BiP AI is not prioritizing it enough and hence is not spamming it enough. As a result, you still end up needing some form of e-management while takes out the whole point of that elite.

2) I used 2x Dwaynaway healers with a ST as backline. I did find that the Dway dervishes would run ahead, agro half the map (even when flagged back) and cause unnecessary problems. Normally when you run regular dervishes you can afford to lose em, but since they are the main healers, losing even 1 of them can cause problems which could lead to a wipe on harder areas. Note this is with 2x Dway and no monk prots on the team

I guess you can work your way around the Dway problem, due to adding a UA monk and/or adding monk prots on one of the rits. My main gripe is with BiP, which i am finding to be problematic and i am having better results microing it around.

shaygo · May 20, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

You can do a few things to alleviate the spike damage problem, here's a non-comprehensive list of what I've tried:

Remove Displacement (and Union) and just use Aegis chains.
Spec about 5-6 Restoration on the ST Ritualist for Spirit Light (Also lets you use Pure was Li Ming, which is very nice indeed).
Find a place for Spirit Bond (not recommended on the ST Rit).
Put low spec Infuse Health on another character (not more than 1).
Use Spirit to Flesh (not recommended when using BiP).
Drop Soul Twisting and just use an ER Prot (Difficult to manage on some strong elementalist groups).

By the by, Rupture Soul and Spirit to Flesh aren't that bad. The blind duration is really helpful and they won't randomly kill spirits if it would produce no effect. ST Destruction bomber Ritualists are actually pretty strong (can do a 70% nearby AoE nuke + 12 sec Blind just by themselves), but unfortunately, the hero AI won't drop Destruction in the middle of enemies. Using melee weapons on them to force it produces pretty mixed results...

I've managed the spikes in the foundry until I met the Fury's group

any tips on dealing with that group ?

Aria Frost · May 20, 2011, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

2) I used 2x Dwaynaway healers with a ST as backline. I did find that the Dway dervishes would run ahead, agro half the map (even when flagged back) and cause unnecessary problems. Normally when you run regular dervishes you can afford to lose em, but since they are the main healers, losing even 1 of them can cause problems which could lead to a wipe on harder areas. Note this is with 2x Dway and no monk prots on the team

Have you tried setting the dervish heroes behavior to avoid combat and/or equipping them with caster weapons instead of scythes?

Anaraky · May 20, 2011, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaygo

I've managed the spikes in the foundry until I met the Fury's group

any tips on dealing with that group ?

Try disabling every spirit but shelter and microing it. You should have a pretty high uptime. Using this build you also probably need to use Release Enchantments on your dervishes and micro when needed since the on demand burst healing without it is low/non-existent.

hunter · May 20, 2011, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugen

doesnt deserv a quote, but look again screenshot and count some stuff again / who is the player & heroes / where is hiding splinter + many usefull pve skills : (mass minion /3* speed / melee + fire + they on fire./ high heal potential...)

I would say your build is complete trash -> one thing is certain : your comment IS.

Guess i missed this one:

No ST--> No shelter and/or union = Losing the equivalent of party wide prot spirit and and shielding hands

Splinter weapon on a non rit primary, namely a paragon. Most likely the channeling attribute won't reach past 10, which again is completely subpar when compared to a splinter weapon from a 16 channeling

Discord combined with 3x melee dervishes and a PI mesmer. Doesn't take a genius to figure out its not the most optimal combination. Its original and it works, but not the best build.

So ya, the build is bad, doesn't mean it can't beat HM PVE because as i pointed out a few posts ago, you only need like 2 kills on each hero to beat PVE.

Dzjudz · May 20, 2011, 02:30 PM // 14:30

hunter, just keep in mind that this is not just an inefficient build, but that it is not meant to be an efficient one in the first place (which is why it isn't vetted on pvx for example).

hunter · May 20, 2011, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

hunter, just keep in mind that this is not just an inefficient build, but that it is not meant to be an efficient one in the first place (which is why it isn't vetted on pvx for example).

Don't misunderstand, i like the idea of a Dwayna Derv healer. Its original and can offer more offensive power to highly defensive builds. Heck im using 1 on my para right now. It has potential.

My main gripe is with that 3x derv 3x discord alternative posted on p5 which is totally silly and pointless. All the build consists of is way way too must healing while the minions and the discord do the killing in a slow, steady and boring type of way.
That build neither capitalizes on Discord (no caller or mass hex and condition spam), nor the offensive capabilities its Derv healers (has too much healing on discord, 16 chan rit and smiter monk would be soo much better.)

Aria Frost · May 20, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Usage: Set hero to Passive.

It seems that the dwayna healer is not meant to deal damage... however I still haven't tried this build, so maybe I'm wrong.

Daesu · May 20, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aria Frost

It seems that the dwayna healer is not meant to deal damage... however I still haven't tried this build, so maybe I'm wrong.

I heard heroes dont really like to use OOU. Somehow I am not convinced a scythe wielding passive healer is a better healer than its alternatives.

shaygo · May 20, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

2 things i found annoying:

1) I used a BiP minion mancer, and i found that the AI was not as good with BiP as i had hoped. Keep i mind i took away all e management from my heroes and during long battles they would still run out of energy. What i see happening is that the BiP AI is not prioritizing it enough and hence is not spamming it enough. As a result, you still end up needing some form of e-management while takes out the whole point of that elite.

2) I used 2x Dwaynaway healers with a ST as backline. I did find that the Dway dervishes would run ahead, agro half the map (even when flagged back) and cause unnecessary problems. Normally when you run regular dervishes you can afford to lose em, but since they are the main healers, losing even 1 of them can cause problems which could lead to a wipe on harder areas. Note this is with 2x Dway and no monk prots on the team

I guess you can work your way around the Dway problem, due to adding a UA monk and/or adding monk prots on one of the rits. My main gripe is with BiP, which i am finding to be problematic and i am having better results microing it around.

I agree on the BiP issue. my primary is a necro so I tool this role on my last run in DoA. found that I need to use BiP not so commonly (maybe once in a fight and only on Gwen). so I might change the elite to well of power instead.
regarding the aggro issue, meloni is on "avoid combat" and using a rod and a +45/enchant shield - no aggro problems at all.

hunter · May 20, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

About the "Avoid Combat" issue. I was running a variant with Banishing strike so i figured i might as well make her do dmg. Id i set on passive and run a more defensive variant yeah its fine but its such a waste... This build has such potential to be a "warrior healer" type of thing.

I will keep playing around with it. If you have minions in play and with some careful pulling it works better. But if you only have spirits, don't even think of running the hero on defensive, he will die.

shanaya · May 26, 2011, 12:07 PM // 12:07

I've been using the 'original' Dwaynaway team build, as per the first post here, to work on my EOTN title. This has meant vanquishing/mapping all EOTN areas and now working my way through HM missions. It is a good build for me because I have the same intermittent connection problem as the OP, and so far the build has proved effective. I had a bit of bother with the burning spirits in Sacnoth Valley but other than that its been a smooth C-space experience. Still got the HM dungeons to do.

Elad Agilaz · Jun 19, 2011, 05:50 AM // 05:50

I have no problems with bumping up this post, been using it the same as the above poster for vanquishing eotn areas and it is working beautifully. The dwayna healer is really good.

Thinking how to best condense the team down to 6 heros to take a guildie along on vanqs or even down to 5 heros on those annoying nf missions that require a specific hero without losing the core functionality of the build.

LexTalionis · Jun 24, 2011, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Few quick notes on the thread:

BiP isn't necessary at all if you have good energy management and if you're not abusing Mesmer Fast Casting. There's plenty of good alternatives if you work fine without it. I just find it easy to combine with a minion master and slightly more useful (this is opinion) than Aura of the Lich or Jagged.
Yes, the pure Dwayna healer isn't meant to do damage at all. Warrior healer specs work fine for plenty of areas, but there's times when you really REALLY do not want your Dwayna dervishes to be running into melee and aggroing half the map, like the ToPK. I prefer the melee version in areas with large clumps of melee enemies that will bunch up nicely for splinter weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elad Agilaz

I have no problems with bumping up this post, been using it the same as the above poster for vanquishing eotn areas and it is working beautifully. The dwayna healer is really good.

Thinking how to best condense the team down to 6 heros to take a guildie along on vanqs or even down to 5 heros on those annoying nf missions that require a specific hero without losing the core functionality of the build.

Compression isn't too difficult using the pure healer build. Frankly speaking, it only takes 1 Dwayna healer to cover for the entire team, with an additional spot healer if you're paranoid (usually a rit). If you want to reduce the team down to bare basics, this is what I do for 4 person areas:

-Yourself (Do whatever you want)
-Dwayna healer
-Some form of mitigation (Ideally with Aegis for less micro)
-Some form of damage

Usually, I'll do this:

-Mitigation = Minion master with Dwayna's Sorrow or Aegis. Both are excellent fodder for Release and Minions do a lot of damage in lowman areas.
-Damage = Domination mesmer.

With 6 person areas, use a full-time prot (instead of/with) the MM and you can pretty much bring anyone you want on the 6th (or 5th). AoD tends to steamroll White Mantle in WiK largely because their usual monk counters (hexes) can't really deal with it.

Frankly, for low-man areas, it might be wiser to just use the scythe variant and go with a Channeling/SoS ritualist instead of the Domination mesmer. I've vanquished all of the 4 person areas in Ascalon using 2 AoD melee dervishes and a SoS channeling rit.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.