Curse

Shadowlion · Apr 01, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKSdivision

lol.....did you just not read what people have been saying? If you know how to play an Assassin you DON'T die quickly! So don't jump to conclusions and assume every Assassin dies quickly.

Yeah right but it's MUCH EASIER to play an elementalist, just stay back and do the DPS right?

deadmonkey4u · Apr 01, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

PvP sins are easily viable

PvE well they work sorta (i did hench thru nf and factions); however, if I was making a group for some reason I wouldn't be spamming LF sins or something. Why? well I feel like the whole sin taking out 1 guy or so really fast doesnt add much to a party. Why don't I just take a mm or something a tank n a buncha aoe SF or something. Its not the fact that they don't work. Its more the fact that they don't do the primary PvE objectives well. The whole deal with you need healers tanks and massive damage dealers preferably aoe.

Age · Apr 01, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

The way I see it is most don't play it that well.When I play with the hero Zenam i the hero seems to play it really well as I have never seen and uses it skill to it best advantage I have changed the skill hardly except secondary.I have one I am trying out but not to keep just giving it a try like I did with the Ritualist which I enjoyed.

HKSdivision · Apr 01, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlion

Yeah right but it's MUCH EASIER to play an elementalist, just stay back and do the DPS right?

Yeah right to what? Playing an Elementalist doesn't take skill, all you have to do is cast a few spells (ex:Immolate,the ever so popular SF,MS,etc) here and there and you've done your part. It doesn't take a genius to play an Elementalist but it takes skill to play an Assassin. If you want DPS for an Assassin take BoA or Flurry and you're set.

Trust me, I have an Ele and it's not hard playing one. I also play an Assassin and that takes skill

Shuuda · Apr 01, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Nuker ele's are very simple, but fun to play, and then we have blindbots etc in PvP.

Playing an assassin in RA these days takes a bit more skill, seeing as how the players there take builds to counter us.

and by the way Mokone, I was defending assassins in PvP, in which you said they weer not good, and a skilled assassin like me knows that's 100% flase.

Corinthian · Apr 01, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Why, you the assassin, will never be in my PvE party:

-Every time something "Afflicted" dies, your hp drops to 25%
-Your name hints at anime (this, however, dismisses any other class as well)
-Combination of the above
-Why bother when I can have a Dervish applying Deep Wound on 3 enemies every 3 seconds?

moko · Apr 01, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Nuker ele's are very simple, but fun to play, and then we have blindbots etc in PvP.

Playing an assassin in RA these days takes a bit more skill, seeing as how the players there take builds to counter us.

and by the way Mokone, I was defending assassins in PvP, in which you said they weer not good, and a skilled assassin like me knows that's 100% flase.

for PVP, where Assassins might be considered useful

GVG;
Gank - assassins are fine gankers, but many prefer to run a ranger or a warrior, even a rit over one
parts of hexbuilds - guess i dont need to explain why you're running an assasin in a hexbuild where everyone abuses soul reaping
mass assassins - spiking multiple targets

do you see them in anything else? no.

HA;
nuke - in combination with ele nukes, as a finish off when the party is being pressured, to get quick kills while targets are already at 50% health
spikes - ritspikes with assassins with added damage

do you see them in any other sort of parties? balanced? no.

TA;
random - you see them anywhere, most of which are totally uncoordinated, usually fail to blinders or hexes due to team arenas being tiny. are they effective against good teams? no.

whats left? RA? AB? so im wondering, in what kind of PVP do you own badly with your assassin? your guild doesnt seem to be high ranked, so i guess you must be a gimmick hero or an RA farmer?

Quote:

How could you see it as boring though? The other classes are ALL just standing there either next to the enemy pounding on them or sitting in the back shooting people that you probably never even look at. Assassins are the ONLY class in this game with an action filled combat style.

because its
123456
get out
/dance
123456?
if your target is being protted, you cant do shit but do your combo, if your blind or got a hex you cant do shit but continue with your combo and fail.

play as a ranger, youll have to tab, use your brain, look for what to interrupt, have good reflexes. as monk, you obviously need to adapt to the situation, pre protting, looking at the field and not stalking the red bar. warriors have to watch targets being protted and then switch to get the best for their pressure, same with dervs. paragons are so freaking versatile, and for the others im not gonna comment, they're just lame, except water eles. ;D

lol @ all the armor discussions and the crap, that was so full of BS i was bursting off laughers. id like to thank Don Zardeone tho, for making a good post. ;o

Darkpower Alchemist: the deadly arts spiker is using SIGNETS, and has FOUR pips of regen. makes it easy enough to manage the energy with blinding surge. but yeah, assassins cant kill warriors for shit, even if they have no stances, i just ABed today and had an assassin try to spike me 4 times and healsig simply owned him? (btw, a warrior cant spam mending touch like rangers :S). so overall, sins arent really capable of killing a [riposte] warrior - but that doesnt matter, because those warriors are total shit, why would anyone kill them when they cant deal damage?

Dopesimple · Apr 01, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Also, sins are well documented for their squishy killing abilities, but what of head to head vs other melee builds? They fall short against a well built warrior, most taking 2 or more combo chains,or a 2nd sin to help kill one warrior of moderate skill.

Im not going to argue, but I have taken on quite a few Warriors, I agree its not fast, but by keeping my defenses up, and wearing him with my combo, and dealing some fast, high damage, I have killed them. Not in 3 seconds like I would attacking a Non-armor.... but I still have. I agree that there are alot of ppl that dont know how to play the Sin, and that Sins are different than a Warrior, but they still have theyre ups. And there are alot of ppl that dont know how to use a Sin, but dont show hate, theres a good number of really good Sins!

Dopesimple · Apr 01, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

and to add to my last reply....

critical barrager is one of the most laid back A/R builds I have played, with the right armor your basically a group of Ranger, but heal yourself off of your hits, deal a mass amount of bleeding dmg, and interupt...... whats so wrong with that, its an easy to use build. stop bashing the Sins, and start learning how to use them effectively. bash the noobs who dont know how to play.

Div · Apr 01, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Seriously, AB may be fun but what real PvP'er considers that a good form of PvP? The fact that it's filled with people that take PvE builds in and mindlessly attack or cap points with minimal strategy makes it not a form of real PvP, where intensive team communication and strategy is involved.

And assassins are just good at solo-spiking out people who aren't paying attention or are so stupid they're overextended three screens away from their monks. While they may be great in conjunction with a pressure build to catch the other team off guard, or when you have multiple assassins spiking different targets, I know they're not as good as Shuuda tries to claim they are.

Seriously, I'd fight against assassins over thumpers or hammer pressure warriors any day in HA or GvG, because they're pretty predictable.

Conclusion? Rank 6 gladiator > Pro sin AB'er.

Reference to string of deleted posts removed.

suiraCLAW · Apr 01, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

for PVP, where Assassins might be considered useful

GVG;
Gank - assassins are fine gankers, but many prefer to run a ranger or a warrior, even a rit over one
parts of hexbuilds - guess i dont need to explain why you're running an assasin in a hexbuild where everyone abuses soul reaping
mass assassins - spiking multiple targets

do you see them in anything else?

Actually: yes. Assassins are actually used in balanced teams (watch iPod vs tag for a good example) and in melee/hex pressure builds (moebius blossom etc.).

Anyway, I don't really get your point: assassins are indeed a bit of one-trick pony's in pvp (the same goes for paragons, dervishs, monks and warriors) since they concentrate only on offense, but that doesn't mean they're bad.

For example: shadow prison/siphon speed - black spider strike / black lotus strike - death blossom - impale is an excellent spike (which is slightly better than evis - exec) and with a shorter recharge and a "surprise" effect (read: you can spike on demand).

The reasons to take a assassin are:
- they have a huge DPS for several seconds every once and a while (this is often 20 seconds, but several builds can do their burst every 12 seconds or faster).
- you want assault enchantments to support other melee.
- your pressure build needs the amazing DPS of a moebius blossom sin.
- they shine at killing NPC's and lonely runners.

Still, an assassin can't - and shouldn't be able to - kill a GOOD monk 1vs1 (or a teammate of that monk). But like I said, assassins can spike extremely well and if they are capable of hitting somebody that already suffered some damage (this depends on their build) they will kill them. The same goes for most warriors, except that the most common warrior builds (evis-exec or dev-crush-fierce) deal less damage (again, this depends on builds).

@Mokone, I suggest that you keep in mind that for every monk there are at least 3 people trying to kill him or his teammate (general speaking). What I want to say is: in competitive pvp you'll never need to fend off one assassin every 20 seconds instead you'll need to prevent and/or outheal the damage of his teammates AND you need to stop his attack. Since you are glad 6 I bet you already know this (never met a team that synced a spike between their SP/BoA sin and their shutdown character?)

Div · Apr 01, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Of course assassins are going to have a stronger spike than the typical evis-exec. The point of the warrior is to be able to dish out consistent DPS, whereas the assassins do large damage in small packets of times. Sins are used in balanced groups as a good part of the split, and present a good way to solo spike out a target when their monks are preoccupied. However, they are much weaker in terms of pressuring an opponent compared to a warrior or thumper. While I believe that sins can be really useful in some situations, they are not nearly as godly as Shuuda tries to claim them to be.

And Shuuda, after reading through what you and Mokone said, I think her arguments are much stronger than yours. Half of your posts deal with saying that she's an elitist and trying to come up with ridiculous assassin builds. They're great for solo farming, but I thought the point of your debate was in PvP.

As someone who's racked up good balth faction and seen all kinds of PvP play, I'd say I can provide a pretty fair judgment on whose arguments regarding PvP are better, and while I agree that sins aren't completely useless, I wouldn't say they're super good...

And before anyone criticizes that I only play monk and is one-sided, I've gotten 10+ skill points on my PvP assassin (and that was created fairly late, or else it'd have much more).

Corinthian · Apr 01, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

It's been proven many times that assassins are in GW because of the coolness factor and as an excuse to use anime-based names. Also arguing with skills that each have a counter is moronic.

Shuuda · Apr 01, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

It's been proven many times that assassins are in GW because of the coolness factor and as an excuse to use anime-based names. Also arguing with skills that each have a counter is moronic.

And that's the kind of thinking which is why we have threads like this. The main Melee proffessons, W/D/A all share the same basic weaknesses, but because each one can bring different things to the field, each have more usefullness at certain times.

Assassins, because of Critical strikes, and attack skill that also give back energy, they can keep up an energy based offensive, with devoting too much to e-managment. The clear pro is that they don't need to wait for adrenaline build up. Example say, Death blossom + Moebius strike (With critcal strike added in and used whenever) can keep yup pressure, without having to stop for fuel. Warrior could not keep up with that sort of energy intensiveness, the Dervish would also have some trouble because of having to keep up enchantments. Assassin (although they don't match Rangers and Mesmer) can do some good interruption, Like I've mentioned with daze, Exausting assualt can also in theory interrupt 2 spells and give exaustion for both (but only if your lucky, normally it's only 1 spell)

There is also alot more to assassins than anti monks, don't forget that them spike combos will work on most 60AL targets, and with Ebon daggers, who says it's impossible to come up with an anti - melee assassin?

suiraCLAW · Apr 01, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

i actually didnt say they were "bad", i was giving reason why they are gimmick and why id rather have something else in my team.

I still don't really get your whole argument back there, but that's OK - I guess...

Quote:

id like to redirect you to this thread;

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10135810

I say: you can run assassins in balanced builds.
You react: assassins aren't balanced (I won't call them gimmicky) thus assassins can never be used in a balanced build. (correct me if I'm wrong here)

This kinda confuses me since IMO a build that contains an one-dimensional character isn't always a gimmicky build (especially since I consider 99% of the monk builds one-dimensional). If you don't agree with me here, that's fine since this is just a matter of opinions.

BTW: one-dimensional is the opposite of having utility.

Quote:

all of that is true, except some people in here where claiming that assassins always get their kill out in one combo, totally not taking into consideration that this is a team game -- so i argued the same way. yes, assassins are great to finish off targets, but id still rather have a warrior that can finish me off and take me down to half HP already.

In the first part of the argument you quoted I actually explained why Shuuda is/was wrong. In other words, I completely agree that assassins can't kill monks 1vs1.

@Holymasamune, I completely agree(d) with you (that's why I have no idea why you reacted on my post).

Shuuda · Apr 01, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

If by 1 on 1s you mean I like an assassin Vs a Monk with no one else at all around, then yes, the monk would, most likely (Unless he makes a mistake/ gets lag etc) not die. But GW being a team game 1 on 1s down matter, If I said that an assassin could kill a monk I meant it in the context of Team PvP, where the monk has teammates he must consider as well, and well if a monk isn't healing/proting his team, then... well no doing an ace job is he. On the over hand if the monks teammates don't help him, then they suck. So if a monk dies like that, it's cause of bad teamwork, and that assassin is taking advantage of that.

moriz · Apr 01, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

nobody hate assassins, but there are always better options. that is final.

Shuuda · Apr 01, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

wait, if nobody hates assassin, then why did the creator of this threat think there was? Like the OP says, there are 1000s of threats on this subject, therefore there is clearly an ongoing issue.

moko · Apr 01, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

nobody hate assassins, but there are always better options. that is final.

i do

but actually, the assassin situation in PVE has improoved by a lot. after all the buffs, they became a bit more popular in NF at least (still not in factions due to the unfriendly assassin atmosphere with exploding mobs :S)

it really was worse when EVERYONE hated them back then.

Quote:

This kinda confuses me since IMO a build that contains an one-dimensional character isn't always a gimmicky build (especially since I consider 99% of the monk builds one-dimensional). If you don't agree with me here, that's fine since this is just a matter of opinions.

i actually took it that way that you called hexways balanced. didnt get your point there - my bad. (this one ->

Quote:

Actually: yes. Assassins are actually used in balanced teams (watch iPod vs tag for a good example) and in melee/hex pressure builds (moebius blossom etc.).

)

just confused me.

Samurai-JM · Apr 02, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

K im back from work, looks like this page has turned into mokone vs the assassins...

but the deal with assassins being "gimmicky" is sadly, true in several cases. This is what has brought so much hate upon them. People always tend to use common builds such as the SPBoA sin in the arenas, then Moebius/DB in PvE, and nothing more. But assassins can do so much more than what the majority has bent upon doing! I personally have found/created many types of assassin builds outside the normal ones, and for the most part they work great. For example:

My Assassin's Promise spiker for PvE:
[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Dark Prison[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
Personally my favorite PvE build out of any assassin build, able to cut through mobs like a knife through butter. However it isn't very easy to use as you really need to choose targets wisely so you can ensure the kill to trigger AP. Not great in the hands of an amateur.

My Moebius Blossom build, called the Chkkr Farmer on wiki, but used for much more than just farming:
[skill]Critical Defenses[/skill][skill]Unsuspecting Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Shadow Refuge[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
interchangeable for solo farming or overall PvE gaming, with either Dark Escape or Way of perfection instead of a rez. Great defense combined with near constant healing and loads of DPS. A perfect PvE build for any assassin.

The PvP Beguiling Haze Spiker:
[skill]Shadowy Burden[/skill][skill]Beguiling Haze[/skill][skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Blades of Steel[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
Rez can be switched to Feigned Neutality if needed, but with a good monk it shouldn't be. Kill monk first then other casters to defeat outside healing. This build is capable of killing any single caster, and most melee characters without substantial defense with ease. If Blinding Powder is added somehow, it can shutdown any character. Again, not for amateurs. This is the most common build I personally use in PvP. SPBoA is too easily counterable.

Just a few examples.

Also the "exploding mobs" in Factions can also be easily countered by adding something as simple as /Me for Mantra of Frost, /D for Mystic Regen or Conviction(or both, works great), or other secondaries to counter in many ways. After all, no one is ever limited to a single profession.