Curse

MercenaryK · Nov 27, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

My apologies, it's hard to tell whether you were or weren't.

And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room.

Bobby2 · Nov 27, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

My apologies, it's hard to tell whether you were or weren't.

And you're right, 4 attack skills > 5 attack skills since it leaves more room.

4 Attacks can IMO only be done convincingly in a SP build. Why? A Sin wants his snare, I know I do, and no O or D has cripple or suchlike. Just to note, I consider the immense KDage of the AoD Shock Sin a form of snaring as well, so don't break the argument on that.

I've never run a non-SP build without either LMS, Siphon Speed, or BMT (the latter two combined quite often).

Lead Attacks are NOT DEAD

EDIT: To your post top of this page: I could not agree more. I'm sick of people saying Sins are overpowered; our spikes are not too easy to ruin.

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Our utility sucks balls.

Lead attacks arent dead?

You just said 2 Leads you use.

Desperate strike = not used
Unsuspecting Strike= No longer used (cept in RA =P)
Golden Lotus Strike = Not used, weird!
Jagged strike = Pve only basically
Dancing daggers = Sojsin only >.>
Iron Palm = Not used really.
Golden fox strike = used.

>.> Quite alot of leads are not used >.> its a fact.

MercenaryK · Nov 28, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Wouldn't Unsuspecting Strike be a decent lead for hard hitting power? Especially if you truly want to bring your target from alive to dead? Sure it's 10 energy but an attunement rune or even +5e on your daggers can cover that.

LaserLight · Nov 28, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

The problem with that is that using Unsuspecting forces you to use a standard off-hand, unless you're pulling something weird. And as we all know, most standard off-hands bite. The only one that does any appreciable damage is Jungle Strike, which requires set-up that Unsuspecting doesn't give. I've tried a Grenth's Grasp Assassin a couple times, run Unsuspecting/Jungle/Fangs, but the damage just isn't there even then, and it's rather energy-intensive. Heh, was great for mad snaring though.

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Unsuspecting is really a 1 time use, once you use it, unless the monk sends that red bar all the way to Zombie jesus, it won't deal massive damage twice.

also 90% condition? That just means you have to target someone at full health to do the good damage >.>

MercenaryK · Nov 28, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Don't most assassins go after full health targets? The 90% conditional damage makes up for the energy cost and is more than enough to take a huge chunk out of them.

You'd have to switch targets and put pressure on different characters if your kill doesn't go right the first time, to keep getting the 90% benefit.

And Laser I did try looking for a good off-hand to follow up, and it was either Fox Fangs or Wild Strike, nothing really great ~_~

I think it wouldn't hurt to give the sin a couple of different skills, rather than re-make the current ones. Seems limited in their chains/combos when you look at the list of dagger skills.

Yanman.be · Nov 28, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

In the past I would have advised to go to full health targets. Due to the latest power reductions for our class, I'd say to build a shorter, but better "compact" combo, that might pick off weakened targets, or duospike with another char.

X Cytherea X · Nov 28, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

the only near-perfect l-o-d at the moment is gfs-ws-sa. anet should build l-o-d around this concept: awesome synergy, spammability and decent damage

Quote:

I took holymasamune's suggestion of watching some high end GvG (and it's hard to tell who's HanD with the Japanese kanji) and searched high and low for all Assassin's used in fights. I found two that danced around their foes, using the SP build, but tweaked a slight tad. Most of the time they didn't out right kill their foes, more than likely due to enchants/monks, but very close to death.

Then I've watched them take out a few people here and there. I think the Sin is more for the 'scare' tactic. If you don't watch them carefully, they'll gank some one, but if you keep an eye on them death can be prevented. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything wrong with Sins. It's all about catching your foe off-guard or get them unexpected

THANK YOU, someone who actually watches them in action with an open mind.

Shuuda · Nov 28, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

THANK YOU, someone who actually watches them in action with and agrees with my stupidity.

Fixed for the win.

Sniffy · Nov 28, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I'm posting on the fly and haven't really given a lot of thought to how this would work out but I'll post it anyways so ready your flamethrowers....

Remove lead attacks.
Off-hands now function as lead attacks (or the leads could function as off-hands I don't really care)
Dual attacks still function much the same way.
Triple (needs catchier name obviously) attacks. These would function as a dual attack only you hit three times.

You would encourage Assassins to use the skills like
Off-Dual-Tri
and *not* Off-Dual-Tri-Off-Dual-Tri by having Tri attacks temporarily disable Off hands so you don't have these insanely long chains.
So, *in general* you would have three main skills which did damage.

In general, I'm thinking shorter recharge (8 to twelve seconds (I'm with Coloneh)), can't kill from full health, but still provide a respectable spike.
The shortness of the chain would mean you can do decent amounts of damage, while not hanging around forever, but your chain is still counterable by things like blind and block of course. (This needs work, if assassins would only have 3 attack chains they could all pack Sight Beyond Sight for blind immunity which would be unfair, I'm just not sure how to change this yet)
So, a usable spike, that doesn't neccesarrily kill, but is blockable, but is short enough to be usable.

*Then* we buff Assassin utility.
Temporary shutdown, dazes and blinds which only work for a few seconds.
Enchant removal, temporary skill disabling for assassin and target, (not unlike blackout).
Overall, if done right, there would be a fairly limited (but not too limited) number of possible chains, and a large part of the build would be focused around the shutdown being done properly.

In short, you have to use your right conditional shutdowns at the right time, your right spike, at the right time.

You would have to make sure the shutdowns were not powerful enought to be abused in GvG and other high-end PvP.

This would move assassins from Build Wars to Guild Wars. Since it would be more about how the combo is played, than what the combo is. This would prevent a large amount of the BuildWiki abuse which got the sin nerfed in the first place.

In short, the Assassin would move from being a solo-spike instakill to a coordinated team player, still possessing spike capability, without being overpowered, you *might* want to buff base dagger damage somewhat, so that, if absolutely neccessary, an assassin could solo someone from full health, it would just take longer. With some Shadow Arts buffs, (possibly even a temporary increased armor buff)

This would hopefully move assassins so that it's about how they are played, less about if your Wiki bar beats my Wiki bar.

Also, Shadow Arts should be buffed, and in a way more intended for Assassins, than for Monk abuse, but it could still be usable for Monks.

Deadly Paradox functionality would need to change to prevent abuse.

The functionality of shadow stepping would have to change somewhat (who would want to use a 20 second recharge shadow step with an 8-12 second recharge chain?)
So skills like Shadow Fang (unsuable with it's current recharge) and possibly Dark Prison, as well as Shadow Prison would be changed to make it more usable with the new direction Sins would be taking.

Overall, this was primarily intended as more of a PvP thing. Maybe someone with more PvE experience could comment on how this could work in PvE.

Any thoughts/improvements/bringouttheflamethrowers?

Jaigoda · Nov 28, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

That would absolutely ruin PvE 'Sins... No more point in MBlossom. And what's to stop people from still running off-dual-off-dual combos if you don't nerf duals? And if you nerf duals, you're just making a slightly more powerful L-O-D combo. Nice idea, but I just don't think it'll work. And as for shadow-steps, right now spike attacks recharge in 8-12 seconds, and SP (and TS) recharges in 20. It'd be the same thing. And also, I highly doubt A-net would be willing to give us a whole new set of attacks, and delete a whole set of attacks. They've (from my knowledge) never deleted a skill, and the only skills they're created aside from campaign releases are the Factions/NF PvE skills. But yeah, sorry but I'm against this.

Bobby2 · Nov 28, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

In the past I would have advised to go to full health targets. Due to the latest power reductions for our class, I'd say to build a shorter, but better "compact" combo, that might pick off weakened targets, or duospike with another char.

Ah. So I'm not the only one who feels we've been reduced to ganking if we want to have any survivability at all...

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.

Sin utility could really be what makes or breaks this class and makes it balanced or not, not just daggers >.>. If assassin Utility was up to par, it could conpensate for weak L-O-D combo's and make them strong enough to do serious damage the first time, and screw them over the second time =P. Crazy idea...im going to say it anyways.

Heres an L-O-D chain (that I've buffed, all damage/whatever figures 12 DM/CS/)

[card]Leaping Mantis Sting[/card]Lead attack. 5 energy, 1/4 activation 3 recharge.
If this hits you deal +30 damage.
If this hits a moving foe you inflict cripple for 16 seconds.
If this hits a crippled foe you deal an additional +10 damage.

This mean's if you stay on your target and cycle your chain, your still doing some good damage (better than the 1st time)

[card]Fox Fangs[/card]Off-hand. 5 energy, 3 recharge
If this hits you deal +27 damage.
If this attack fails to hit, you deal 40 damage to all adjacent foes.
If this follows a lead attack you do an additional +12 damage (not affected if you fail to hit).
If this does not follow a lead attack, this skill does not count as an off-hand attack and takes an additional 5 seconds to recharge. This skill cannot be blocked

[card]Nine Tail Strike[/card] Dual attack, 5 energy 4 recharge
If this hits you deal +30 damage. If this attack fails to hit you deal 50 damage to all adjacent foes. If this follows an off-hand attack you deal an additional +13 damage.
If this skill does not follow an off-hand attack, your next attack skill misses and takes an additional 10 seconds to recharge.
This skill cannot be blocked.

The fox line has been changed to be, Pretty much unstoppable!
However by making the miss damage Armor affected, It does almost nothing to warriors/paragons/dervish/sins, and isn't very painful on monks.
However as its adjacent damage...it will find its way onto pve builds.

Making Duals make your next skill miss and recharge is better than making the dual itself recharge. Dual's get much better damage from following a off-hand, and so DDDD, won't work as 2 of the skills will miss for not having an off-hand.
And take even longer to recharge,,..

So the sin will just simply get 2 dual attacks off and if he trys it again he gets the rest of his combo recharging (and with less damage from not following a lead)

Really the only thing that can pull off multiple dual attacks like that

is a Flourish/sins promise sin.

And a sin casting flourish in between his spike >.> Ton's of time to save your ass.

Oh and just for the sake of Fixing assassins

[card]Deadly paradox[/card]All your assassin enchantment spells activate and recharge 50% faster and your assassin attacks Recharge (not activate) 50% faster. hex's cast 50% faster and last 50% longer on you, and all non assassin enchantments cast 50% slower on you.

Signet spike ...dead, Augury,DD spam...DEAD....entangling spam...urr...DEAD...
Quick recharging combos....alive...Shadow form farming >.> still intact.

>.> might change that to make your assassin Hex's activate faster instead of enchantments =P
______________

Anyways >.> Sin's used to be able to do a bit more stuff in the past....
Before an assassin could go after a full hp target, without using SP or Castersin.
Now pretty much any sin who is not 1 of those >.> Needs to pick off injured foes.

Sniffy · Nov 28, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

That would absolutely ruin PvE 'Sins... No more point in MBlossom. And what's to stop people from still running off-dual-off-dual combos if you don't nerf duals? And if you nerf duals, you're just making a slightly more powerful L-O-D combo. Nice idea, but I just don't think it'll work. And as for shadow-steps, right now spike attacks recharge in 8-12 seconds, and SP (and TS) recharges in 20. It'd be the same thing. And also, I highly doubt A-net would be willing to give us a whole new set of attacks, and delete a whole set of attacks. They've (from my knowledge) never deleted a skill, and the only skills they're created aside from campaign releases are the Factions/NF PvE skills. But yeah, sorry but I'm against this.

All you would have to do is nerf duals somewhat, and make tri attacks the more powerful ones. This would eliminate the incentive off-dual-off-dual because it would be as pitiful as the current lead-off-dual-lead-off-dual.
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything....

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

All you would have to do is nerf duals somewhat, and make tri attacks the more powerful ones. This would eliminate the incentive off-dual-off-dual because it would be as pitiful as the current lead-off-dual-lead-off-dual.
The idea is that a lot of the skills related to damage and doing your chains (dagger attacks already have this as you said) mainly things that could be neccessary to start your chain, such as a hex or shadow step, would be based on a shorter recharge, somewhat less powerful chain. Like I said, I'm no PvE, but I'm guessing that something could supplant the overused moebius death blossom build, which seems to be about the only build sins have going for them right now, besides SoJ and Way of the Master.
I don't really expect Anet to act on any of this anyways. But as they are currently, Assassins are kind of broken, and there has to be a first time for everything....

no tri-attacks. That sillyness is bad...bad sauce.
Actually its not that your idea is bad....what i've seen described to me is bad.

Ur....lets nerf duals a bit...and bring something even RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin stronger!!! with more hits to bypass things like block/blind.

or we could boost up the lead/off hand stuff that is singular attacks >.> and won't just be pissing off MORE people...and is easier to impliment,less confusing, would bring less bugs, and cause less exploits

Sniffy · Nov 28, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

[QUOTE=ensoriki]WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.

Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered.

ensoriki · Nov 28, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

[QUOTE=Sniffy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

WTF triple attacks!?
....Im not going to even Say anything more.

Because.....? It's thinking outside the box? If Assassins aren't allowed to kill people, they should at least be allowed utility, while still mantaining some semblance of respectable damage. Tri attacks would be one way to help free up slots on a sins bar for utilitity, while the temporary disable would make overpowered off-dual-tri attacks able to do a decent amount of damage, while limiting them from killing people, which apparently is considered overpowered.

Scrapping that idea and buffing the current system works better.

I doubt its the fact that assassins kill thats overpowered, if it is then >.> God people are stupid.
Its that they are killing in about 3 seconds or 4 seconds.

All while the target is on his ass.

Before IAS's

The assassin at best took 5--8 seconds to kill a target.

And could be defended against better.

It's not even really just shadow steps, while they piss people off.

An assassin with an IAS is what probably pisses people off the most.
A class that has no IAS in pvp, for the sake that A-net knows it will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over the game.
Having access to IAS's in pvp? Well.....interesting.

you could have

Dual/triple/quadruple....sextuple hits for attacks.

An assassin with an IAS would make it breeze buy and the targets on the floor.

Now in todays metagame 2 things.

An L-O-D sin is the pits.
Sin utility is crap (pretty much always has been..probably always will be)
Sin with an IAS = Better than any assassin without it >.>
Except for a siphon strength sin...or Mirror stance sin....but those are so rare >.> I expect to see the T-rex in Canada first.

Sniffy · Nov 28, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

[QUOTE=ensoriki]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniffy

Scrapping that idea and buffing the current system works better.

I thought everyone was complaining about how overpowered sins were and that the system was broken. So we should keep the same system and buff them?

I doubt its the fact that assassins kill thats overpowered, if it is then >.> God people are stupid.
Its that they are killing in about 3 seconds or 4 seconds.

All while the target is on his ass.

Before IAS's

The assassin at best took 5--8 seconds to kill a target.

Hey, that's fine by me. All you have to do is make dagger attack skills not activate faster when under the affects of an Ias (except for crit agility).

And could be defended against better.

It's not even really just shadow steps, while they piss people off.

An assassin with an IAS is what probably pisses people off the most.
A class that has no IAS in pvp, for the sake that A-net knows it will RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO over the game.
Having access to IAS's in pvp? Well.....interesting.

you could have

Dual/triple/quadruple....sextuple hits for attacks.

An assassin with an IAS would make it breeze buy and the targets on the floor.

Quote "What I just said above."

Now in todays metagame 2 things.

An L-O-D sin is the pits.

/agreewholeheartedly

Sin utility is crap (pretty much always has been..probably always will be)

Which is why I was requesting the buffs....

Sin with an IAS = Better than any assassin without it >.>

A.K.A. people complain that it's overpowered.

Except for a siphon strength sin...or Mirror stance sin....but those are so rare >.> I expect to see the T-rex in Canada first.

I did actually see a Mirror stance sin. Once.

Sniffy · Nov 28, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Heh, that post didn't quite work out. You'll have to look at the quoted material to see my replies...