Curse

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

/disagree

Dervs.

EDIT: And yes, Return should be nerfed to hell

dervs dont pack as much punch as a sin does with high critical strikes so sins are used more with spikes like that.

Back when derv spike worked it was overpowered but its not now

edit- Sins do moar damage mkay? Also the shadow walk/dash combo takes up two spaces on a already cramped derv bar and when using shadow walk you can't get your IMS going so if the monk choses to kite then your in trouble.

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Eremite's and Mystic are back at 1/4 amirite? In my experience it were the fast follow-ups to the DW that did the trick

Didn't consider they don't have [skill]wild blow[/skill] available as /A... that changes stuff a little too

EDIT: I took HoF into consideration

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

exactly they have better options then shadow steps

sins and monks are really the only classes that can fully abuse shadow stepping. All classes as you pointed out can abuse it but not as well.

moko · May 19, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

Dervs can ill give you that but there dying out in GvG and HA because sins do it better. The only derv you see in GvG is a [skill]Avatar of Melandru[/skill] derv but then they won't be using a sin elite will they

wounding strike gimmick much? doesn't abuse a shadowstep though. :P

Quote:

sins and monks are really the only classes that can fully abuse shadow stepping. All classes as you pointed out can abuse it but not as well.

every class can abuse a shadowstep, in a gimmick

eurospike, shadow prison warriors much?

shockwave, dual shadowstep.

d/a, a/d spike much? or plain dervspike? sure, they have been nerfed, but they did work at some point.

even return is bad for the game.

other casters don't need to abuse shadowsteps.

the funny thing is, instead of fixing the shadowsteps, they always nerfed the spike skills to hell.

i actually tend to believe that shadowsteps on dagger sins are less dangerous than other things. ever since instagib has been slowed down, i couldn't care less about sins anymore.

the only dangerous thing that's left is SA. so what, it's inferior to other melees in any competetive gvg, and any kind of trash works in pve, so /care.

sins themselves are pretty bad by now, just the skills they brought to other classes for abuse are OP.

edit: and sinsplits are shit by themselves, the midline makes them good. before anyone wants to mention that. :P

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

wounding strike gimmick much? doesn't abuse a shadowstep though. :P Thats a sin mah friend

eurospike, shadow prison warriors much? dead

12charsofawesomeness

edit: all the builds that you mentioned worked at there time dont really matter now as they dont work now

moko · May 19, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

12charsofawesomeness

and no, they're dervishes. nobody wants dumb scythe sins with wounding in gvg when they deal less damage and die so much faster. stop spreading false information. but yes, maybe they're in HA, in A/D spikes, but not melee pressure.

and yes, the builds are clearly dead, because sin shadowsteps made them way too OP. instagib is dead too, your point? there is a reason why they were nerfed, think about it. -_-

besides, these classes can still abuse these skills. wait for the next PvP update and you can expect good eurospikes with W/A coming back.

oh and obviously they don't work anymore, OH WAIT THEY DO. in fact, all of them still work, of course not the exact same ones, but modded ones.

true story: other classes abuse shadowsteps as fine as sins too. it's all gimmick dependant, swoosh?

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

and no, they're dervishes. nobody wants dumb scythe sins with wounding in gvg when they deal less damage and die so much faster. stop spreading false information. but yes, maybe they're in HA, in A/D spikes, but not melee pressure.

and yes, the builds are clearly dead, because sin shadowsteps made them way too OP. instagib is dead too, your point? there is a reason why they were nerfed, think about it. -_-

besides, these classes can still abuse these skills. wait for the next PvP update and you can expect good eurospikes with W/A coming back.

oh and obviously they don't work anymore, OH WAIT THEY DO. in fact, all of them still work, of course not the exact same ones, but modded ones.

true story: other classes abuse shadowsteps as fine as sins too. it's all gimmick dependant, swoosh?

i believe amazing strength used a A/D and yea its used in GvG

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6427 check out mah mad research skills
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6415

main reason why is dark apostasy's enchant removal which a derv can't replicate or really any other proffesion.

and the AoB derv spike doesnt work anymore (and by dont work i mean they've been replaced by better builds)

moko · May 19, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

..you won't get it.

A/D spikes is quite dead now, might still work but nobody runs it anymore.

your point was that apparently dervs are dying out, and you say so in a melee pressure meta where people run 1 to THREE WOUNDING STRIKE DERVS.

?! of course, now and then there's A/D in gvg too, but it's much more common in ha, unlike melee pressure, and people don't use sins for that.

maybe you should check out obsmode sometime instead of browsing old stuff.

also, look what you said.

Quote:

edit: all the builds that you mentioned worked at there time dont really matter now as they dont work now

guess what, they hardly work anymore. now please think through your posts a bit more, okay?

and besides, you make it look like i said A/D spike never worked or was never used?

/leaving the ignorant person alone now, no point making someone understand simple things~ try re-reading everything and think about it, you are contradicting yourself again. -_- *heads to bed*

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

..you won't get it.

A/D spikes is quite dead now, might still work but nobody runs it anymore.

your point was that apparently dervs are dying out, and you say so in a melee pressure meta where people run 1 to THREE WOUNDING STRIKE DERVS.

?! of course, now and then there's A/D in gvg too, but it's much more common in ha, unlike melee pressure, and people don't use sins for that.

maybe you should check out obsmode sometime instead of browsing old stuff.

also, look what you said.

guess what, they hardly work anymore. now please think through your posts a bit more, okay?

if you had read all my posts you would see that i did say HA/GvG so all my points about wounding strike/da sins are still valid. Didn't have to be gvg even though they are used there. also just cuz no1 in the top 300 guilds runs it doesnt mean no1 runs it just not you cool kids

Magikarp · May 19, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

other than the fact that my post mysteriously vanished.. lol

sins suffer the same anti melee tactics as any other class. very few counter procedures should ever be used the second before an attack skill is used, so theres no reason why you wouldn't simply keep a sin blind, or keep him hexed ect.

not to mention all of the active anti melee stances/skills out there. shadowstep or not, im not seeing any of your points as to how you can't predict their moves.

red dot of danger gets near your radius bubble, hex/blind/weaken whatever, boom, useless. he can still step if he wants, but his damage is weakened, just like any other form of frontal attack.

even the more reactive skills still work, like clumsiness/inep, shield bash, shield of force ect.

to me, its just an excuse for lazy playstyles... i monk, i have no problem catching spikes and shadowsteppers of any class, so either im awesome (which i know im NOT), lucky (which i'd have to have 24-7 luck), or just paying more attention to detail, which i think a lot of you aren't tbh.. (no offense).

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

or just paying more attention to detail, which i think a lot of you aren't tbh.. (no offense).

maybeh b/c spikes in HA using scythe sins can take a person of any al from 600 to 0 in like 3/4 of a second to a second? dunno but thats a little tricky to catch especially when theres no pre hexing or conditioning required so the caller can pritty much chose w/e target he feels like.

as for instagibers yea its easy to stop so what you want a cookie?

Neverending Silence · May 20, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

imo classes are never "broken"... builds and skills maybe...but classes no! sometimes u simply need new ideas. or be a better player and make smarter choices in game. if a nerf stops u from playing just as efectively as b4 come up with a new idea. i would rather have a pro sin over any other class in pvp than anything else. sins rape...its a fact. always will be. nerfs or no

Magikarp · May 20, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

maybeh b/c spikes in HA using scythe sins can take a person of any al from 600 to 0 in like 3/4 of a second to a second? dunno but thats a little tricky to catch especially when theres no pre hexing or conditioning required so the caller can pritty much chose w/e target he feels like.

as for instagibers yea its easy to stop so what you want a cookie?

if you're talking about one sin being capable of doing this, i'd love to meet him. if its a group of people, all of the typical anti spike precautions take effect. positions on radar, pinning, infuse techniques, and spirit bond/ps are all anti spike tools, not to mention all of the bazzillions of anti melee skills there are in the game.

i've faced these gimmicky builds in HA while monking here and there (they're not popular..) and they fail for the same reasons any gimmick heavy build fails for...

predictability..

RavagerOfDreams · May 20, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

if you're talking about one sin being capable of doing this, i'd love to meet him. if its a group of people, all of the typical anti spike precautions take effect. positions on radar, pinning, infuse techniques, and spirit bond/ps are all anti spike tools, not to mention all of the bazzillions of anti melee skills there are in the game.

i've faced these gimmicky builds in HA while monking here and there (they're not popular..) and they fail for the same reasons any gimmick heavy build fails for...

predictability..

im sry i cannot ignore this1 bobby

1. no, im talking about an entire team
2. you can't tell where a sin will shadow step unless theres only one target in his radar (which a good sin will make sure hes got lots of options so the monks don't preprot his target). You can tell where he has shadow stepped which is a huge advantage but this is not predicting this is watching.
3. the only way to stop those spikes is a combo infuse/rof (or some MBaS/SL) from your backline and, once again, thats amazing clicking reflexes not predictability.
4. there a spike team who doesn't know they'll be spiking? So yes the spike fails often but if there was a spike the succeeded 100% of the time what would be the point of the game?
5. i like the number 5 so what?

Magikarp · May 20, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

unless you're playing a different game, even with 3 critical hits, on a 650hp target at full hp, you're not dropping them instantly, or even within 3 seconds, which is more than enough for a good monk to catch, IF they didn't have any form of blind/hexs/anti-melee hexes to slow, or totally stop him to begin with.

if you see something of such a high threat, you stop it in advance, not wait till the last minute. you make it sound like this is the end all build in the game, but its barely used, so its kind of hard to even understand what meta you're talking about.

i rather see a derv with a step than a critsin goofing up all over the place, and even then, they aren't "broken", its simply a different, more surprise-spike than if you were just running up to someone. you also sacrifice a lot of other utility when leaning towards the shadowstepping side of frontlining.

RavagerOfDreams · May 20, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

unless you're playing a different game, even with 3 critical hits, on a 650hp target at full hp, you're not dropping them instantly, or even within 3 seconds, which is more than enough for a good monk to catch, IF they didn't have any form of blind/hexs/anti-melee hexes to slow, or totally stop him to begin with.

if you see something of such a high threat, you stop it in advance, not wait till the last minute. you make it sound like this is the end all build in the game, but its barely used, so its kind of hard to even understand what meta you're talking about.

i rather see a derv with a step than a critsin goofing up all over the place, and even then, they aren't "broken", its simply a different, more surprise-spike than if you were just running up to someone. you also sacrifice a lot of other utility when leaning towards the shadowstepping side of frontlining.

wakey wakey magicarp i said im talking about a entire team

that means that the only hit that matters is the first one which will apply the deepwound. If you manage to then disrupt the sins 2nd or 3rd attacks the rest of the team will be more then capable of handling the target. Also the sin won't spike if hes hexed and most sins carry assassins remedy so even if you get a bsurge off you'd have to cover it before he used his next attack skills which often both have 1/4 activation times.

GL with that

Magikarp · May 20, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

my apologies, i misread "no, im talking about an entire team".

still, SB/PS end the spike, as do any form of interruption. if its a hex heavy team, you'll never not have anti-melee, and if your target has any stance of any sort, now you have problems again.

dont forget about your enchants being ripped as well, and the fact that sins are nothing but glass cannons, so once you're stopped, now you're right in line for a savage beating.

draw, FF, or any other condition control counter the spike, as does classic Infuse, so im still not seeing how this is broken.

a big ball of spikers can easily kill the unprepared, no doubt, but some goofy gimmick doesnt make the whole class "broken" (which none are in gws), and is the point of this awful thread, especially when its been proved time and time again how easily those gimmicks can be countered (ritway, rspike, bspike, ect...) or, on the other hand, nerfed (like ritway and iway).

Adja1005 · May 20, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

I can't stand how overpowered Assassins are at the moment in PvP, especially in AB, as they can go/be anywhere at anytime. Not to mention they can drop a Warrior with 800hp down to 0hp within a few seconds.

I'd love to see Assassins get smacked with the nerf bat, harsh i know, but this class has just ruined AB to be honest. I usually disagree with nerfs as i'm of the opinion that nerfing a class or skill doesn't create balance. But something needs to be done about Assassins in AB because at the moment its gg pwned within seconds if one decides to come at you.

Bobby2 · May 20, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

I can't stand how overpowered Assassins are at the moment in PvP, especially in AB, as they can go/be anywhere at anytime.

This is pretty much true. But this is due to the nature of the format (huge spaces inbetween critical areas) and Assassin's inherent focus on speed and positional play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

Not to mention they can drop a Warrior with 800hp down to 0hp within a few seconds.

They can't (unless we're talking srs Frenzy-Healsig noobiness). BTW 800 HP would imply crap skills like [skill]endure pain[/skill] in which case that War deserves to die most horribly anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

I'd love to see Assassins get smacked with the nerf bat, harsh i know, but this class has just ruined AB to be honest. I usually disagree with nerfs as i'm of the opinion that nerfing a class or skill doesn't create balance. But something needs to be done about Assassins in AB because at the moment its gg pwned within seconds if one decides to come at you.

The fact that this comes from a Ranger primary just made my day.

Adja1005 · May 20, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

This is pretty much true. But this is due to the nature of the format (huge spaces inbetween critical areas) and Assassin's inherent focus on speed and positional play.

I have nothing against the nature of what the Assassin class is meant to do i just think there needs to be some equality. The fact they can go anywhere and spike the hell out of anyone then disappear is somewhat annoying lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

They can't (unless we're talking srs Frenzy-Healsig noobiness). BTW 800 HP would imply crap skills like [skill]endure pain[/skill] in which case that War deserves to die most horribly anyway.

Point taken there but still the fact remains they can spike the hell out of "tough" classes like the warrior and leave them standing with 1/4 of their health bar left lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

The fact that this comes from a Ranger primary just made my day.

Not totally sure why you said that, but i'm glad i made your day lol. And btw i'm not actually a Ranger primary

!