Curse

Kafiri_Mkorogai · May 19, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Hello. I am quite ignorant when it comes to playing assassins in general, having never done so for any length of time, and was just curious if you could resolve something for me. I have read in multiple posts that due to nerfing the assassin class is in many ways "broken." Could someone please clarify how the class is, or can be perceived to be broken, and if there have been any effective strategies to get around such obstacles (alternate builds, etc)? I would like to play one some time, but if it is going to be a gimped liability in pve (where I play most often these days), then I may reconsider.

Thanks for your assistance.

moriz · May 19, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

the moebius assassin can maintain 80DPS forever into infinity in pve. they are broken, but in the sense that they are too powerful.

the nerfing mainly impacted in assassin pvp performance. however, those nerfs merely brought them back in line from the ridiculousness of what they were like before. the only people who complained about those nerfs are the ones without the necessary skills to succeed without resorting to running those overpowered crap. for anyone with a brain, assassins perform well in pvp, especially in AB.

Tyla · May 19, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

In an overpowered way, yes.

These days they are at a decent level. Instagibs were never good for the game.

It's still decent to use in PvE though.

Super Igor · May 19, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

In PvE nothing is overpowered, PvE is not competetive.

In PvP...shadow steps...instagibs....gvg ganking...quite a lot of specific skills.

itsvictor · May 19, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Assassins really broke PvP. Shadowsteps and instagibs were bad for the game. They are still viable but originally they were too powerful (Spikes based on a definite recharge time=bad). Moebius+DB rules PvE. To put it Moriz's way, you need a brain to play it well now(That is not to say 123 spikes make you good).

la_cabra_de_vida · May 19, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

In PvE nothing is overpowered, PvE is not competetive.

In PvP...shadow steps...instagibs....gvg ganking...quite a lot of specific skills.

QFT, in a game where positioning = everything, sins can defy this rule.

poobert · May 19, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Personally I liked the shadow stepping, but combined with the ability to kill anything and everything in all of 4 seconds did ruin it. Then again I never have played in high end GvG, where they say shadow stepping has wreaked havoc even without the "headshot".

Tyla · May 19, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

QFT, in a game where positioning = everything, sins can defy this rule.

Not only that, but it can also be abused by other melee professions.

I believe Dervs to be strongest with Shadowsteps, as they also have a broken weapon.

FlamingMetroid · May 19, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

The implementation of the skills was also very poorly done, many of them [shroud of silence] for example, can only either be overpowered or crap.

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Not only that, but it can also be abused by other melee professions.

I believe Dervs to be strongest with Shadowsteps, as they also have a broken weapon.

^this. Shadow Step + Scythe Spike = wet pants.

[skill]death's charge[/skill] followed by
[skill]bull's strike[/skill] or [skill]earth shaker[/skill] is nasty too.

EDIT: Sins excel with room to manoeuver - We Rule AB.

Kaleban · May 19, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

The reason sins are not overpowered with shadowstepping (in most cases) while other classes ARE is due to the nature of dagger attack chains.

A teleporting Dervish with a couple of solid attack skills is a nightmare, or Fire nuking (Starburst a personal fave) Eles teleporting into the middle of a mob with a GlyphSac Meteor Shower are good examples.

If a sins' lead attack (or conditional offhand) misses, the rest of the skills whiff, and/or you're doing mediocre auto-attack damage. That's why anti-melee counters are MOST effective vs. a sin, as their entire damage output is erased, whereas classes that don't have skill lead-ins only see a small decrease in overall damage.

PvE-wise, there are some specific builds that either out-damage any other class, such as Moebius+DB easily outdoing even SH ele builds, or the ubiquitous shattersin who's only weakness is blind, which can be easily overcome.

PvP-wise, the class suffers because in MOST cases people are not as dumb as AI, and take advantage of the fragile nature of many sin attack combos when it comes to block/evade/blind.

However, in either case, a well-played sin is very effective, and there are still skills out there that make people go: "WTF JUST KILLED ME??" That makes playing a sin especially enjoyable!

Chthon · May 19, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Such comments usually refer to PvP. The problem with assassins is that they can deliver a near-instant kill, meaning that you predict them and preemptively stop their attack chain (blind, pre-guardian, etc), or you die. Of course, predicting when and whom one is going to attack is hard because they shadow step. A-net has taken steps to tune down their ability to single-handedly kill things faster than reactive measures can be taken, but they remain significantly more able to kill someone in a shorter window than any other class. (And that's the fundamental design problem right there: No matter how much a-net tones down their power level, they are always going to be more "instagibby" than the other classes, right up until you hit the point that they are nothing more than inferior warriors.)

In PvE the assassin was a horrifically weak class up until PvE-only skills were added. Since hit-n-run tactics don't work as well in 100-on-8 situations as they do in 8-on-8 situations (or 4-on-4 or whatever), assassins end up trying to behave like frontliners, where their lack of armor becomes a BIG problem. Critical Agility goes a long way to compensate for this.

moko · May 19, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

ok, so, let's take signet of might, bugged version. you cast it on anyone, after a few second they instantly die.

counters: blackout the signet of might

so with your argumentation, signet of might was not overpowered.

i guess that makes sense -- stop trolling now.

matsif · May 19, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

sins aren't broken, just got nerfed from doing 200+ damage to a 70 AL ranger (me) in the old days. instagib was dumb

now I find a combo of SS+RH+Price of Failure+Empathy to be quite enough to pwn the average sin in ab or ra/ta etc. love noobs who attack thru that.

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

simple answer. no. they aren't.

more detailed answer:

blind, anti-melee hexes, shield bash, any anti-melee stance.

yes we are horribly overpowered in PvP

Assassins can defy all rules of positioning on a field. There is no way of telling where or when a sin will strike because he can do so whenever he feels like it. This creates a huge advantage right off the bat. Not only that but sins can gain instant access to places that other classes have to run to we simply shadow step up walls or even across maps. Using [skill]Aura of Displacement[/skill] Sins can create huge advantages for there teams while splitting. Example: Sins run off to go wreak havoc on the opposing guilds NPC's and a warrior and a derv from the opposing team follow. But before they left they shadow stepped using [skill]Aura of Displacement[/skill] so they are still anchored to the main fight. So they go to the NPC's and maybe kill one maybe not but then they release the shadow step and boom 8 on 6 advantage at the flag stand. This can also work in reverse as the flag runner and warrior will chase the sins away only to have them release the shadow step again and there back in the NPC's to cause all sorts of hell.

That + the fact that were the only class to take a full health target from 600 to 0 is a little overpowered. However im not saying the whole idea of sins is flawed. The idea of shadow stepping needs to be fixed to require some line of sight. As for the instagib chains...the sin is totally vulnerable to all forms of damage while using a instagib chain so its not horribly unbalanced.

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Assassins can defy all rules of positioning on a field. There is no way of telling where or when a sin will strike because he can do so whenever he feels like it. This creates a huge advantage right off the bat. Not only that but sins can gain instant access to places that other classes have to run to we simply shadow step up walls or even across maps

Anyone who can Shadow Step has this positional advantage - yaay /A. Let's call every melee profession overpowered, shall we?

moriz · May 19, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

my monk can shadow step too. is my monk overpowered as well? uummm... i don't know....

it really boils down to what happens AFTER the shadow step, and whether going /A is worth the loss of whatever other secondary that you could use.

on axe warriors, very little is worth the cost of losing [[[email protected]]. on monks, going /A meaning giving up another potential utility skill or energy management.

i think with minor exceptions, only assassins can truly benefit from shadowsteps, because they don't need to sacrifice a potentially useful secondary to use it, and because everything they do is tied to shadowstepping to begin with.

as such, shadow steps can only be classified as "overpowered" on primary assassins, and are generally neutral on secondaries.

RavagerOfDreams · May 19, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

my monk can shadow step too. is my monk overpowered as well? uummm... i don't know....

go play hb against a tanker and then tell me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Anyone who can Shadow Step has this positional advantage - yaay /A. Let's call every melee profession overpowered, shall we?

ahh yes so true however warriors cannot afford [skill]Aura of Displacement[/skill] high energy cost and maintain while still having to use frenzy. sins can keep energy for there chains with critical strikes. And as for skills like [skill]Shadow Prison[/skill] It denies the warrior a elite skill which just makes it a baed choice compared to [skill]Eviscerate[/skill] or [skill]Devastating Hammer[/skill]. The other shadow steps have a 30 second recharge making them sorta useless. Dervs can ill give you that but there dying out in GvG and HA because sins do it better. The only derv you see in GvG is a [skill]Avatar of Melandru[/skill] derv but then they won't be using a sin elite will they

Bobby2 · May 19, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

as such, shadow steps can only be classified as "overpowered" on primary assassins, and are generally neutral on secondaries.

/disagree

Dervs.

EDIT: And yes, Return should be nerfed to hell

EDIT2: what have Dervs to lose by running [skill]shadow walk[/skill]-[skill]dash[/skill]? Just need to remember to activate HoF beforehand. [skill]aura of displacement[/skill] is but a SINGLE example of shadow stepping - you gonna base your entire argument on that?

moriz · May 19, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

HB is pve, so it doesn't count

Quote:

Dervs.

only true when pious assault was a 1/2s swing. nowadays, their slow swing rate really hurts them to the point that sins are more dangerous.