Curse

Daesu · Jan 01, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

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Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

At 12 resto 0 spwning Life will have 210 hp it would take 5 cast to kill it just with the heal itself. and if it gets kill soon than the 20 seconds are up it's not a big deal because no matter how it dies you will get healed.

The problem is the AI tends to over-heal. Spirit Transfer would cause Life to die sooner than its natural life span of 20s and monster attacks help that along. The recharge time for Life is still 20s so if it dies sooner, you are left without a Spirit, which makes your 2 Spirit Transfer useless and your 2 Spirit Light start to sac 17%hp per cast. This is also why I dont like Spirit Transfer.

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As for Recovery its nice if you have a friend running another Necro healer but just by itself its more energy and takes longer to recharge and at the pace you kill things with discord there would be no reason not to bring the short recharging skill.

Or you can just let the other N/Rt hero bring Recovery, so you have 2 Spirits instead of 1 so you dont have a single point of failure. Energy is not a problem and the heroes cast them when the fight starts anyway. With 2 Spirits, Mend Body and Soul would remove 2 conditions per cast, plus a nice heal, so there is really no need to have 2 Li Mings for even more condition removal.

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Protective was Kaolai works I just prefer the double Pure was Ling Mi do to the fact that the build has no hex removal what so ever so keeping the conditions mostly degen off of your team relieves a lot of pressure off your healers.

With so much healing, degen is hardly a problem in most PvE areas and Pure was Li Ming doesn't remove hexes. Furthermore you dont need so many condition removal as few conditions is a problem for casters (besides daze) and your team is mostly consisting of casters. Protective was Kaolai also helps to boost your healers's armor by +24, helping your healers stay alive, which Li Ming doesn't.

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Over all choosing Prot was and Recovery over Prot was and Life or Pure was and Life is not wise. that +hp every 20seconds is alot of less work for your healers.

As I have said Life doesn't last long. If your healers have runes and one of them has 550 life for example, it means they sac about 94 hp everytime they cast Spirit Light. This reduces their effective healing from Spirit Light to only 62hp per cast, from 156 and your healers can sac themselves to death.

Zidane Ortef · Jan 02, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The problem is the AI tends to over-heal. Spirit Transfer would cause Life to die sooner than its natural life span of 20s and monster attacks help that along. The recharge time for Life is still 20s so if it dies sooner, you are left without a Spirit, which makes your 2 Spirit Transfer useless and your 2 Spirit Light start to sac 17%hp per cast. This is also why I dont like Spirit Transfer.

Impossible you can not cast Spirit transfer enough times to kill the spirit of Life do to the recharge of Spirit Transfer.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

As I have said Life doesn't last long. If your healers have runes and one of them has 550 life for example, it means they sac about 94 hp everytime they cast Spirit Light. This reduces their effective healing from Spirit Light to only 62hp per cast, from 156 and your healers can sac themselves to death.

Life last 20 seconds and has a 20 second recharge its a permanent spirit where as Recovery at 12 resto last for 54 seconds but has a recharge of 30 seconds so moving from group to group there will be a down time of you not have a spirit at all unless you bring another one.

I've used those same build and the normal 1 MM, 1 SS, 1 Healer setup to do Legendary Vanq. and all dungeons, HM missions etc and never have I saw Livia sac herself to death because she didn't have a spirit in range, In fact I've never seen her sacrifice her health at all.

Spirit Transfer is the best spike heal a rit has at his disposal no reason not to take it for HM.

Unreal Havoc · Jan 02, 2009, 03:35 PM // 15:35

You do realise this is an Assassin discussion? Right?

Tyla · Jan 02, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

If you've got SY you're not going to need a spike heal, and will benefit more from bringing Weapon of Warding.

Daesu · Jan 02, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Life last 20 seconds and has a 20 second recharge its a permanent spirit where as Recovery at 12 resto last for 54 seconds but has a recharge of 30 seconds so moving from group to group there will be a down time of you not have a spirit at all unless you bring another one.

No spirit is permanent. Every spirit can be attacked and killed off quickly, especially if you use skills that takes away their health. Depending on the mob, 20s may not be long enough for the Life to stay alive before the battle ends especially since the hero always casts it before a battle even starts. If Life is dead in a tough battle, your healers would be too busy healing to recast it and I have seen them use Spirit Light and sac their life before.

Anyway, I am just saying the build can be optimized further and doesn't need to be so condition removing centered especially if you are using your assassin as a caster along with 3 necro heroes. MBAS with 2 spirits (2 condition removal per cast) along with Recovery should be enough for a caster team in most areas and you can do with the additional +24 armor from PwK to protect your healers.

Balky · Jan 02, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

So had a play with the Zaishen damage master, and who needs an elite to kill stuff

DM 16 ( rune and mask ) Crit 15 ( rune ) Daggers 20/20`s customised

Unreal Havoc · Jan 03, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Two superior runes on your 70al ass is still bad.

Also for the record, I have tried it. It is not a good PvE build.

Super Igor · Jan 03, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

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Originally Posted by Balky

So had a play with the Zaishen damage master, and who needs an elite to kill stuff

DM 16 ( rune and mask ) Crit 15 ( rune ) Daggers 20/20`s customised

Double sup runes are bad because you have much better ways to deal damage in your disposal than bombing yourself with Death Nova.

Also, chances are mr. OP its not the build youre wunning that makes you fail HM its how you play it so review your play style.

If you still ned my builds they are:

[build prof=A/W box dagger=14 crit=13][critical agility][Exhausting Assault][ebon battle standard of wisdom][golden fox strike][wild strike][moebius strike][death blossom][save yourselves!][/build]

Dats me, place ebsow somewhere strategically so you heroes benefit from it and dont forget to step behind the mobs if you feel a sharp need to renew CA.

[build prof=Mo/N box smite=14 div=13][ray of judgment][dark fury][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite hex][smite condition][smiters boon][strength of honor][/build]

[build prof=Mo/N box smite=14 Chan=10 div=9][ray of judgment][ancestor's rage][castigation signet][splinter weapon][reversal of damage][smite hex][smite condition][smiters boon][/build]

[build prof=N/Mo box death=16 prot=10 soul=9][aura of the lich][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][blood of the master][dwayna's sorrow][protective spirit][aegis][/build]

^nec almost entirely copypasta's from pvx. works wonders but bone minions > horrors because a) lies you wont have full army as much b) wtf do you need high lvl minions for bombing? oO

The above build blows up stuff real fast if you say its bad youre just trying to troll me back.

Tyla · Jan 03, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

You call people muppets then you spell "Herd" wrong while attempting to follow up with a second insult. Laughable to say the least.

Let me run through of why your selection is bad.

The sundering application only works (If I am wrong please correct me) on base damage, therefore you're definately going to deal more damage with vampiric daggers considering how low base damage on daggers is.

Superior critical will make little to no difference, and even if you're running a scythe it's useless. Superior runes in general are only worth it when you're hitting a breakpoint, otherwise you're wasting survivability. No, using a skill slot does not justify it.

Your chances of striking the additional damage on Unsuspecting are incredibly low if you're going against something other than the Master of Damage, so if you run something else you're both saving a skill slot (Death Blossom is more effective than Critical Strike - here's a hint, AoE) and gaining more damage in the meantime through a 5 energy attack skill.

Just because you're being original doesn't make it any good. I would quote Faer on Snowflakes and Snowballs here but I really can't be arsed finding the quote.

Also, the PvE skills used aren't restricted to the combo you are using. You can just as easily use them on an MS/DB bar aswell, but people who aren't stupid will bring utility, which will always strengthen either your own damage output as a team or your teams' defense.

I recently made an error message and this seems like the oppertunity to use it. It sucks though, but it sorta fits.

ac0okiemonst3r · Jan 03, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

[

[build prof=A/W box dagger=14 crit=13][critical agility][brawling headbutt][ebon battle standard of wisdom][golden fox strike][wild strike][moebius strike][death blossom][save yourselves!][/build]

dude, 4 pve only skills? you either have hax or didnt intend that

Balky · Jan 03, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla;

You call people muppets then you spell "Herd" wrong while attempting to follow up with a second insult. Laughable to say the least.

Let me run through of why your selection is bad.

The sundering application only works (If I am wrong please correct me) on base damage, therefore you're definately going to deal more damage with vampiric daggers considering how low base damage on daggers is.

Superior critical will make little to no difference, and even if you're running a scythe it's useless. Superior runes in general are only worth it when you're hitting a breakpoint, otherwise you're wasting survivability. No, using a skill slot does not justify it.

Your chances of striking the additional damage on Unsuspecting are incredibly low if you're going against something other than the Master of Damage, so if you run something else you're both saving a skill slot (Death Blossom is more effective than Critical Strike - here's a hint, AoE) and gaining more damage in the meantime through a 5 energy attack skill.

Just because you're being original doesn't make it any good. I would quote Faer on Snowflakes and Snowballs here but I really can't be arsed finding the quote.

Also, the PvE skills used aren't restricted to the combo you are using. You can just as easily use them on an MS/DB bar aswell, but people who aren't stupid will bring utility, which will always strengthen either your own damage output as a team or your teams' defense.

I recently made an error message and this seems like the oppertunity to use it. It sucks though, but it sorta fits.

Actully vamps don`t do more damage than sunds, i`ve tested it out several times. Super crit does make a difference as it increase the duration of my ability to gain a crit, and thus renew both defences and crit agility , blossom may do aoe, but it doesn`t give energy back on a crit which is automatic on critical strike and which strangely enough only costs 5 energy as well , again renewing defences and agility without having to spend energy to do so, scan and urals add 82% damage with another 20% from the customised daggers, which is also helped by the 16 lvl in DM and the 20/20.

Heres a suggestion for you, go run the exact same build as me and then tell me it can`t kill anything quicker than your perfect setup...muppet

Tyla · Jan 03, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

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Originally Posted by Balky

Actully vamps don`t do more damage than sunds, i`ve tested it out several times.

Are you just working off Master of Damage numbers here?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Master of Damage doesn't register life stealing as damage.

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Super crit does make a difference as it increase the duration of my ability to gain a crit

HURR DURR

You completely missed the point. When people say "useless", most will assume it's not worth the hassle. It makes a difference, but it's not worth the skill slot compared to other things.

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and thus renew both defences and crit agility

Defenses is shit, get better Monks and bring something that does something useful.

If you don't score a crit before they run out at even 8 Critstrikes, you're probably affected by anti-crit things or you're incredibly unlucky. That, or you forgot your attributes.

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blossom may do aoe, but it doesn`t give energy back on a crit which is automatic on critical strike and which strangely enough only costs 5 energy as well

I was talking about Unsuspecting in terms of energy.

80 damage to all adjacent targets is worth more than that extra energy you get from Critical Strike.

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again renewing defences and agility without having to spend energy to do so

You think too much about your Crit Defenses/Agility. Either they're going to be removed forcefully or you're not hitting things with your daggers.

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scan and urals add 82% damage with another 20% from the customised daggers, which is also helped by the 16 lvl in DM and the 20/20.

20/20 barely ever triggers, and you'll be hitting more with vampiric either way.

Scan and Urals' aren't limited to the combo you're using, you can use them on an MS/DB for greater potential and roughly 50 AoE damage per Death Blossom hit with BUH active.

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Heres a suggestion for you, go run the exact same build as me and then tell me it can`t kill anything quicker than your perfect setup...muppet

Have you tried working against actual enemies instead of the Master of Damage?

Have you ever thought that an enemy still alive allows more Death Blossoms, which means more AoE damage?

You may kill single targets quicker, but I on the other hand deal AoE damage, and AoE damage wins PvE too for the most part.

P.S: I never imposed that my setup was perfect.

Balky · Jan 03, 2009, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Have you tried working against actual enemies instead of the Master of Damage?........Cleared Mount Quinkai , including the 3 bosses yesterday no problem

Have you ever thought that an enemy still alive allows more Death Blossoms, which means more AoE damage?...why would i want my enemy alive ? He`s better off dead, sooner the better don`t you think, difference in damage between blossom and crit is 7 points, 7 whole massive points

You may kill single targets quicker, but I on the other hand deal AoE damage, and AoE damage wins PvE too for the most part.......wrong, slaughtering the mobs wins ...3 sec kill rinse and move on, you can take your time trying to whittle them down nitpicking at them if you want...assuming of course they all obligingly stand round while you blossom them slowly to death.

20/20 barely triggers ?????????? * cough * uhm ok yeah sure

Mesmer in Need · Jan 03, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

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Originally Posted by Balky

Full Nightstalkers is 85 armour when attacking, plus 21 from crit agility ....thats 106 armour not 70, suggest you go back and retake whichever maths lessons you obviously missed first time round.

Did you try it with the same setup as me ? Don`t thinnnnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkk so, your comments are therefore treated with the consideration they deserve.

Armor ignoring damage and degen says hi.

Sundering works off base damage, not skill damage. Daggers do 7-17. 20% of that is shit. Vamp plus dual attacks (and any other attack really, with ias and a fast weapon) is amazing, the -3's will add up.

Tyla · Jan 03, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

why would i want my enemy alive ? He`s better off dead, sooner the better don`t you think, difference in damage between blossom and crit is 7 points, 7 whole massive points

You wouldn't want your enemy alive, but sometimes keeping things alive happens to help you kill better. If it takes you 6 seconds to kill a single enemy, and there are 3 enemies in a mob, what would you do? Use Death Blossom and get ~80 damage on all 3 of them per Death Blossom or use your combo and get +200ish damage every 6 seconds?

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wrong, slaughtering the mobs wins ...3 sec kill rinse and move on, you can take your time trying to whittle them down nitpicking at them if you want...assuming of course they all obligingly stand round while you blossom them slowly to death.

In other words Death Blossom doesn't slaughter mobs? lol

Take advantage of the bad positioning of enemy monsters in PvE. Don't be bad and just C-Space if you're looking for efficiency, look for blind spots to jump in and do your job more efficiently.

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20/20 barely triggers ?????????? * cough * uhm ok yeah sure

Compared to vamp, you'll be dealing less damage with it.

Also, can you please use the quote command supplied? It will make this debate a lot easier to continue.

Unreal Havoc · Jan 04, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Full Nightstalkers is 85 armour when attacking, plus 21 from crit agility ....thats 106 armour not 70, suggest you go back and retake whichever maths lessons you obviously missed first time round.

While you're attacking. You'll be using Flashing Blades next. Let's see how all that extra armours gonna help you when you get snared, enchantments stripped, etc. 70al is 70al, all the buffs in the world don't mean anything when you start on the base theory level. 2 superior runes on a frontline Assassin is still pretty damn bad regardless of how much armour you have got, even Warriors aren't that dumb. Oh and armour ignoring damage and degen on your really small amount of health says hi. You'll be playing as a caster proffession in the frontline next...

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Did you try it with the same setup as me ? Don`t thinnnnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkk so, your comments are therefore treated with the consideration they deserve.

No, my setup was better as it had more damage from Deep Wound and energy management while having space for a res sig or added utility like Brawling Headbutt. Guess what? It still didn't suit a PvE purpose, just like yours doesn't.

I mean Critical Defenses? WTF?! Lol! Get a Monk who knows how to prot and get some utility on that skillbar, damn.

Oh and try using a Conjure and Strength of Honor from a hero aswell.

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I doubt any of you muppets can see past a palm strike/kd build, herd mentality rules ok ! ...........NOT.

You seriously need to grow up! What are you? Like 12 or something? Muppet is so juvenile british. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to insulting people who have a differing opinion of your build then don't bother submitting anymore, you'll only get upset in the long run.

Zidane Ortef · Jan 05, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

20/20 barely triggers ?????????? * cough * uhm ok yeah sure

20/20 means you get a sunder 1 out of every 5 hits

Vamp is 3 extra lifesteal per attack so factor in that in the five hits u will still 15 health not counting double striking where as with sunder you will only get a bit of extra damange 1 every 5 swings.

Sundering is bad always has been its the same deal with the shield mod -5dmg 20%.

-5dmg 1 out 5 hits you take is not good.

+10vsXX are a much better choice

or the

-2,-3 enchanted, hex, stance mods always.

the only reason you would ever wanna use a 20% chance mod is on a caster set for casting spells.

ac0okiemonst3r · Jan 18, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

/agree with Zidane. i ALWAYS use vamp over sundering. i only use sundering when i mod something i sell to make it "perfect" where, in reality, perfect means it isnt debatable. so that description is a fallacy in itself.

pingu666 · Jan 19, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

ill use sunder on a survivor, otherwise its vamp/zealous

20/20 might just be worth it on a scythe with buffs and 16 mastery

Super Igor · Jan 19, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Dont see why anyone would run Sunder or Vamp daggers for pve...zealeus all the way more energy ftw. As if 3 more damage each hit or 1/5 chance to penetrate 20% of their armor actually matters lmao.