Curse

FoxBat · Feb 22, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. You already identified the key difference between the pious spam derv and the pious spam sin. We've got two builds with comparable damage, but one has SY! and the other doesn't. Hard to get around that.

1. This is all fair enough but it's a very different problem from "lol no energy, lol flash enchants/teardown, lol mysticism skill." If we're past than then great. That sins might be at least equal in terms of damage via the same enchant cycling mechanics is something that has yet to dawn on many in this thread. It's slightly ironic if sins only real disadvantage is the lack of free secondary.

2. Frankly this really applied to the old critscythe and no-one cared. Was the extra sin damage really ever worth giving up party invincibility and allowing your other chars to gear more towards offense than defense? People play critscythe because dagger spam gets dull and they want to blow shit up. While a comparative appraisal to dervs or W/Ds is useful, the ultimate goal is to design a viable high-damage alternative for sins irregardless of the SY disadvantage.

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1A. Another meaningful comparison might be pious spam sin vs. JS+FF+DB+SY! sin. If pious spam does significantly more damage than daggers, then at least it could be said that it's something to do when "I'm already committed to playing a sin."

I don't think there is an easy answer for this. Daggers flat out do significantly more DPS, but only measured against a single target. The death blossom AoE portion exists and is relevant, the AoE itself is wider than scythe swings (albeit not AoHM procs), but the AoE damage is also much smaller and not subject to buffs. It's going to come down to area, play style, and loss of SY.

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3. I guess this is more of a general derv build comment, but: Eremites Attack, wtf?!

Depends on how much time you want to spend balling mobs. Scythe AoE is much smaller than "cyclone axe" AoE, which is what Eremites is. There are positional situations where eremites hits 3 guys and your auto attacks hit none. I don't say this to evaluate the skill as better (no opinion at this point) but this is a missing piece in your analysis.

When comparing to IB we're only talking (for sins) a 10 damage difference on a 6r skill. If you hit just one more guy with eremites 1/3rd of the time, you're probably coming out ahead. The adrenaline teardowns may be better choices though.

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Also Pious Renewal is at 0 spec on the sin so whatever happens w/ respect to damage it's ultimately a gimmick.

What does this even mean? The only extra thing PR does for dervs (that matters) is energy. Assassins have an alternative energy engine. Both primaries use the skill for a single, cheap, instantly recharging feeder into their teardowns.

LifeInfusion · Feb 23, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

What does this even mean? The only extra thing PR does for dervs (that matters) is energy. Assassins have an alternative energy engine. Both primaries use the skill for a single, cheap, instantly recharging feeder into their teardowns.

What I meant is it's not by design. Just like the original crit scythe or W/D WE scythe. Things like that are usually nerfed, even more so if it's a primary attribute skill from another profession on the bar. (see Codex rules)

I'm surprised stuff like ER eles haven't been nerfed honestly. ER smite/heal balls were. R/Rt spirit spam with Oath shot was.

Xenomortis · Feb 23, 2011, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Because ER (PvP) exists?

FoxBat · Feb 23, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Alright I get your meaning. Historically things like that are *rarely* nerfed in PvE land outside of farms, ER being a prime example, Assassin's Promise as another. I don't think critsins will go anywhere in PvP because they have no IAS, lost the fast activating attacks, and scythespikes have gone to nothing (albeit that really happened the moment shadowsteps got aftercast.)

I was surprised that they had the cajones to knock AS down, which was not even much of a speedclear skill. It is totally unlike most of their past behavior. But this a different lead designer who can do whatever he wants, so maybe things will look different going forward.

LifeInfusion · Feb 23, 2011, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Alright I get your meaning. Historically things like that are *rarely* nerfed in PvE land outside of farms, ER being a prime example, Assassin's Promise as another. I don't think critsins will go anywhere in PvP because they have no IAS, lost the fast activating attacks, and scythespikes have gone to nothing (albeit that really happened the moment shadowsteps got aftercast.)

I was surprised that they had the cajones to knock AS down, which was not even much of a speedclear skill. It is totally unlike most of their past behavior. But this a different lead designer who can do whatever he wants, so maybe things will look different going forward.

I wanted them to nerf Shadow form for years now so I guess you're right. Spellbreaker took a hit back in the day of 55ers in UW. Obsidian Flesh isn't a viable skill for general use.

Chthon · Feb 23, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Depends on how much time you want to spend balling mobs. Scythe AoE is much smaller than "cyclone axe" AoE, which is what Eremites is. There are positional situations where eremites hits 3 guys and your auto attacks hit none. I don't say this to evaluate the skill as better (no opinion at this point) but this is a missing piece in your analysis.

When comparing to IB we're only talking (for sins) a 10 damage difference on a 6r skill. If you hit just one more guy with eremites 1/3rd of the time, you're probably coming out ahead. The adrenaline teardowns may be better choices though.

My point is that there is no level of balling where Eremites not going to be outperformed by something. Irresistible is always going to always outperform Eremites for 1-3 targets. Reap Impurities is always going outperform Eremites for 4+ targets (and probably 3 targets too). It's really hard to imagine a situation where I wouldn't take one of those skills over Eremites.

saint666 · Feb 23, 2011, 04:45 AM // 04:45

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Originally Posted by Spiritz

Thing is we never bother trying to make a sin better than d/ - out of all the professions sins get a raw deal with having toothpicks as weapons , stick on that having to use a damn attack chain to get actual dmg specially in hm - hell 7-17 in hm isnt much.
Scythes now have decent attack speed and even as basic dmg will out dmg daggers basic dmg - but its more dmg and abaility to hit 3 foes at once.
The question is - as a sin do you want be doing dmg and killing faster or even in a team would you want an efficient killing sin ?
You are only as strong as your weakest link and we all know attack chains can be blocked or broken same as casters can be shut down but casters dont rely on attack chains.
If you dislike a profession then dont use it - no one forces you to play or be any chr , i dont see ( tho a few team builds were made in gw ) of pure sins vq`ing every zone an dungeon etc all of the time , rarely have i seen 3 or more sins in a team .

except there's a skill called death blossom attached to daggers, which is like a grenade in each hand. Who cares about blocks with asuran scan, and you don't really want more than 2 melee if you're not running physway, unless you want to test your monks.

Demon's Dance · Feb 23, 2011, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I agree,Reap Impurities is Better(for delivering AoE dmg) than Eremite's Attack.But it has problems,it's adrenal skill and it's conditional.I play H/H so it's difficult for me to bring sh***y conditions only to make Reap Impurities work(maybe after 7 heroes update

(Fevered dreams + Fragility comes to mind)).Assuming you can gain the adrenaline to spam both Reap Impurities and Twin Moon Sweep then you can replace Critical Eye with ...

Kaida the Heartless · Feb 23, 2011, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's really hard to imagine a situation where I wouldn't take one of those skills over Eremites.

FoWSC. Im A Jerk.

FoxBat · Feb 23, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Well I ran some more MoW numbers with customized scythes. Basically the sin outdamages the derv by 10 DPS on both Pious Renewal and Wounding Strike builds, with the sin needing a zealous and the derv able to vampiric. Much of that 10 DPS is from base scythe damage vs. a squishy target though, which will usually be less squishy in HM even with cracked armor, as compared to the derv's holy procs. So there's maybe equal damage in exchange for loss of secondary. (Also derv WS is a bit tricky to cycle correctly.)

As for wounding vs pious, the DPS difference is 10, but this is confounded by AoHM procs vs. cracked armor and easier deep wound. For a sin I'd put my money on access to cracked armor though.

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My point is that there is no level of balling where Eremites not going to be outperformed by something.

Yes and I thought I gave an example that directly refuted that. As mentioned Eremite's AoE is not just more targets, it's wider, while scythe is very narrow. There are positions where you can basic attack 1 or 2 targets while eremite's in the same spot hits 3. And IB/Reap Impurities/everything else is only going to hit what a basic attack can. (Reap's holy hits more, but the procs that build up it's holy damage depend on the basic attack.) Eremites is a cyclone-axe style so it's especially common to pick up more targets when you have enemies to your sides or back, but it can even happen with enemies all out front if some are slightly further back than the others. Whether that's typically better than the other alternatives outside of VoS its hard to say, but it's a relevant point in analysis.

Chthon · Feb 23, 2011, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes and I thought I gave an example that directly refuted that. As mentioned Eremite's AoE is not just more targets, it's wider, while scythe is very narrow. There are positions where you can basic attack 1 or 2 targets while eremite's in the same spot hits 3. And IB/Reap Impurities/everything else is only going to hit what a basic attack can. (Reap's holy hits more, but the procs that build up it's holy damage depend on the basic attack.) Eremites is a cyclone-axe style so it's especially common to pick up more targets when you have enemies to your sides or back, but it can even happen with enemies all out front if some are slightly further back than the others. Whether that's typically better than the other alternatives outside of VoS its hard to say, but it's a relevant point in analysis.

It's reeeeeally hard to imagine that happening with the level of frequency that would make up for the damage difference.

Shouzen · Feb 24, 2011, 09:24 PM // 21:24

So, with everything in mind, what could be a 'new' sin scythe build?

FoxBat · Feb 25, 2011, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I think you have the two best canidates at the moment...

Reaper's Sweep is also possible but kinda meh without FGJ. Although it should work fine with dark fury.

Reapers Sweep
Zealous Sweep
Victorious Sweep
WotM
CA
Rending Aura
??? (Whirling Charge if you have outside adren)
??? (Might need CE with whirling charge)

Alternatively you can go 8 scythe with a daggerspam build, but you can't actually afford to KD much more than the above.

In any of these builds you can probably swap victorious for EBSoH for more damage at less energy cost. Depends how well you can stay in your ward or what allies you have up there with you. That might also allow dropping critical eye as long as nothing costly is taking it's spot.

reaper with no name · Mar 24, 2011, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Really late to the party on this, but since Pious Spam was brought up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

My point is that there is no level of balling where Eremites not going to be outperformed by something. Irresistible is always going to always outperform Eremites for 1-3 targets. Reap Impurities is always going outperform Eremites for 4+ targets (and probably 3 targets too). It's really hard to imagine a situation where I wouldn't take one of those skills over Eremites.

RI is very nice, but only if
A) You have the adrenaline for it
B) You're attacking multiple foes
C) The enemy has a condition for you to strip

Scythe sins don't get FGJ, so A) will be a problem unless they've got someone running Orders or something. B) can't be relied on, and C) requires one to build themselves for it (or rely on someone else).

Eremite's does not have these limitations. Personally, I prefer Irresistible Sweep (I almost never need the ability to hit more than 3 foes), but one could easily justify either one. And in certain builds under the right conditions, Reap Impurities works fine too (heck, just yesterday I made a Wounding Strike-based build utilizing it to beautiful effect).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Well I ran some more MoW numbers with customized scythes. Basically the sin outdamages the derv by 10 DPS on both Pious Renewal and Wounding Strike builds, with the sin needing a zealous and the derv able to vampiric. Much of that 10 DPS is from base scythe damage vs. a squishy target though, which will usually be less squishy in HM even with cracked armor, as compared to the derv's holy procs. So there's maybe equal damage in exchange for loss of secondary. (Also derv WS is a bit tricky to cycle correctly.)

As for wounding vs pious, the DPS difference is 10, but this is confounded by AoHM procs vs. cracked armor and easier deep wound. For a sin I'd put my money on access to cracked armor though.

Yes and I thought I gave an example that directly refuted that. As mentioned Eremite's AoE is not just more targets, it's wider, while scythe is very narrow. There are positions where you can basic attack 1 or 2 targets while eremite's in the same spot hits 3. And IB/Reap Impurities/everything else is only going to hit what a basic attack can. (Reap's holy hits more, but the procs that build up it's holy damage depend on the basic attack.) Eremites is a cyclone-axe style so it's especially common to pick up more targets when you have enemies to your sides or back, but it can even happen with enemies all out front if some are slightly further back than the others. Whether that's typically better than the other alternatives outside of VoS its hard to say, but it's a relevant point in analysis.

Speak of the devil...

When I made my wounding strike build and tested it against Pious Spam on the MoW (as notoriously bad for testing as he is), I found it did a little bit more damage on average. However, the fact that said build involved Reap Impurities (and I kept hitting multiple foes) made me doubt it's effectiveness against single targets. In-depth math revealed it to be significantly less effective against single targets than Pious Spam. But RI's effectiveness scales with each enemy, so it's really a case of builds with slightly different specialties, rather than a case of "who's better?".

I think it would be unfair to say that a sin can use Pious Spam better than a dervish, simply because their lack of FGJ means they can't pump out Wearying Strike as often (and the SY bit has already been mentioned). The only way for a sin to rectify this is with Orders or something similar, but in that case they still won't be able to pump out Twin Moon Sweep constantly like a dervish.