Curse

Bobby2 · Oct 21, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

You need two skill slots outside your bar to get similar dps as ms/db (...I have no idea what that translates into in your very open mind, "decent", "omfg"...something else perhaps?

) and that is =/= "entire party build".

What 2 skills? Let's try to keep the argument as concrete as possible.

HigherMinion · Oct 21, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

As a sin that used to run a MoP trigger-sin (Locust's Fury) I was SY spamming, Using Dodge This and Whirlwind for a burst of AoE damage and to activate SY faster. It was better AoE damage than MS/DB due to MoP, and better Single-target, due to the fact that all the buffs that are placed improve every hit.

If LF hits more often, then obviously that must tell you the buffs affect it more?

Vazze · Oct 21, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

What 2 skills? Let's try to keep the argument as concrete as possible.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=33
The two skills are GDW and SoH.

Bobby2 · Oct 22, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

So what you're saying is

[LF + SOH + GDW] has more DPS than [Blossom combo + SoH + GDW]

?

riktw · Nov 02, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDave

For MS/DB + SoH + Barbs - 182 DPS

For LF + SoH + Barbs - 184 DPS

The numbers are near enough the same with the buffs. Any further buffs (like GDW) would result in LF doing significantly more single target damage. This is of course against a 60AL target. The attack chain i used in the LF build is only there to apply deep wound. I didn't spam the skills if DW was not on the target, just auto attacked.

Both builds have their plus points. LF hits more often meaning SY! can be used more often, but it's more vunerable to enchant stripping and without buffs it's damage is pretty low. MS/DB does more AoE damage and doesn't need buffs to do high damage but hits less often making SY! harder to spam.

Both builds work well.

that

LF + 2 buffs is at least close to the damage of moebius spam.
and more SY! is awesome to.
bad part is enchantment ripping as stated by bigdave.
and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 and then C-space is nice, as i am lazy.
add dodge this + SY! on your bar, and your just as good as a blossem spammer imho

Chthon · Nov 02, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Locust's Fury...was better AoE damage than MS/DB due to MoP

I think this is mathematically impossible. Every target in range for MoP is also in range for Death Blossom.

MS/DB, once started, is usually going to go "DB, MS, auto" (or "DB, auto, MS," same difference). DB causes 4 AoE bursts (2 MoP & 2 by itself); MS causes 1 AoE burst, and auto causes 1 * (1+double-strike-chance) AoE bursts. Total is 6 and change for 3 attacks.

Even at 100% double strike, you cannot exceed 6 hits from 3 auto attacks.

Therefore, MS/DB is going to do better AoE damage in conjunction with MoP.

HigherMinion · Nov 04, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think this is mathematically impossible. Every target in range for MoP is also in range for Death Blossom.

MS/DB, once started, is usually going to go "DB, MS, auto" (or "DB, auto, MS," same difference). DB causes 4 AoE bursts (2 MoP & 2 by itself); MS causes 1 AoE burst, and auto causes 1 * (1+double-strike-chance) AoE bursts. Total is 6 and change for 3 attacks.

Even at 100% double strike, you cannot exceed 6 hits from 3 auto attacks.

Therefore, MS/DB is going to do better AoE damage in conjunction with MoP.

Bugger... I think you're right...

So. Would 4x MS+DB spammers be doing more damage than 4x LFs in conjunction with a MoP nuker? It seems so, just with single-target damage LF will win... I've been wrong for a while now >>.

Edit: I don't know why... I still prefer LF. If GDW activated on the AoE from Death Blossom It's be an easy choice, but it's not.

Vazze · Nov 04, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think this is mathematically impossible. Every target in range for MoP is also in range for Death Blossom.

MS/DB, once started, ...

The problem is, it won't get started. If msdb is buffed to match LF single target dps, it will deal >800 (mostly armor ignoring) damage with l-o-d attacks, which will most likely end the target. No MS, no MS/DB. (That's still 6aoe/3attacks though, which is more than 5.4aoe/3attacks for LF, but not by a huge margin.)

If mop tankspank is the name of the game, the more damage the sin has the less the necro will deal, so too high ST dps is not practical. But the comparison is not really fair because the buffed msdb is using 8+2 skill slots, while the LF needs only 5+2 slots (+2 is on smiter). Of course comparing the unbuffed msdb to the buffed LF would would not be kosher either.

_Nihilist_ · Nov 04, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but the testing parameters to prove which is better are going to be hideously difficult to set up.

LF+buffs is only capable of dealing AoE when supported by MoP, while MS/DB - regardless of whether or not there are buffs - deals AoE damage on its own.

The only way you can crunch the numbers is to set up a table comparing the number of foes you are hitting with each, and even then, unless you are actually testing it in-game, the numbers are still going to be theoretical, and therefore in the eyes of many, moot; in other words, just another trollbait/flamebait thread/discussion/whatever. You would also have to check different MS/DB variants, as some players prefer a faster frontload to the unblockable/stance-ending GFS/WS L>O chain which was, for a while, the standard L>O lead-in for MS/DB.

Suffice it to say that theorycraft will tell you one thing, which is that an MS/DB variant is going to eat face when against multiple adjacent foes, which, in the end, is going to happen enough that LF+buffs might outstrip it on single targets, but unless you can absolutely guarantee single-targets with no adjacents, MS/DB is still gonna win.

I might be wrong, but then again, I can live with it. At least my explanation is solid.

Chthon · Nov 04, 2009, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

The problem is, it won't get started. If msdb is buffed to match LF single target dps, it will deal >800 (mostly armor ignoring) damage with l-o-d attacks, which will most likely end the target. No MS, no MS/DB. (That's still 6aoe/3attacks though, which is more than 5.4aoe/3attacks for LF, but not by a huge margin.)

You don't even need MS to beat LF. Even just JS+FF+DB is going to always cause more AoE bursts than LF. Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks.

Tenebrae · Nov 04, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You don't even need MS to beat LF. Even just JS+FF+DB is going to always cause more AoE bursts than LF. Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks.

Excuse me WHAT ? no.
Btw , MSDB has more potential due to its AoE but lets not take that as a "hey a do AoE dmg sometimes and you dont so i win" card because its so far from reality that is almost lying.

Vazze · Nov 05, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You don't even need MS to beat LF. Even just JS+FF+DB is going to always cause more AoE bursts than LF. Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks.

That's true. If lead and offhand are 1/2s, that is a major speed buff.

In my calculation lead and offhand had "normal" activation times. If LF is compared to a JS+FF+DB chain alone, the chain is always going to have higher single target dps (as well) no matter what the buff is since JS+FF takes less time (1s) than a simple dual attack (1.33s).

Reality might be a bit different: queuing these attacks under IAS is not gonna be perfect and the 1.5s execution time (under +33 IAS) is not exactly ideal for the 3s recharge of FF.

Bobby2 · Nov 05, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

That's true. If lead and offhand are 1/2s, that is a major speed buff.

Cue me screaming JAGGED EXHAUSTING MOEBIUS BLOSSOM (again)

Carinae · Nov 05, 2009, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Excuse me WHAT ? no.

You are incorrect. Yes is the correct answer.

Dual attacks = automatic double strike. There is a .125s delay between double-strike hits, they do NOT strike at once.

JS+FF+DB = .5s + .5s + 1.33s + .125s = 2.455s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.62s for FOUR hits. Lead, Offhand, Dual1, Dual2

2x Auto attack = 1.33 x 2 = 2.66s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.76s for TWO hits.

If LF triggers BOTH times (unlikely) under IAS then the result is: 1.92s for FOUR hits.

Tenebrae · Nov 05, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You are incorrect. Yes is the correct answer.

Dual attacks = automatic double strike. There is a .125s delay between double-strike hits, they do NOT strike at once.

Theres a .125 delay between skills usage so your maths are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

JS+FF+DB = .5s + .5s + 1.33s + .125s = 2.455s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.62s for FOUR hits. Lead, Offhand, Dual1, Dual2

2x Auto attack = 1.33 x 2 = 2.66s.
Under IAS the total is: 1.76s for TWO hits.

If LF triggers BOTH times (unlikely) under IAS then the result is: 1.92s for FOUR hits.

JS+FF+DB = 1,62 + 2x .125 = 1,87s

2x Auto Attacks with LF means FOUR attacks , 80% of that to happen so that "unlikely" is more like sci fi pal. He said that the full 3 skills go faster than 2 autoattacks ( NOT dual attacks wich have the same DELAY between them and skill usage ) wich is in 80% of the cases ( or more ) 0,88seg and worst case scenario ( VERY VERY unlikely ) 1,72seg under IAS so yes , the correct answer is no .

And btw , this has no case because if i can remember well , LF sins can have 3 skills for a combo so this "hey i have this and you dont" doesnt work here .

Bobby2 · Nov 05, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

And btw , this has no case because if i can remember well , LF sins can have 3 skills for a combo so this "hey i have this and you dont" doesnt work here .

What combo?

/12

Chthon · Nov 05, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

1. In case anyone missed it, my last few posts have been directed narrowly at the misconception that LF is a good skill for triggering MoP.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

That's true. If lead and offhand are 1/2s, that is a major speed buff.

In my calculation lead and offhand had "normal" activation times. If LF is compared to a JS+FF+DB chain alone, the chain is always going to have higher single target dps (as well) no matter what the buff is since JS+FF takes less time (1s) than a simple dual attack (1.33s).

Yes. Which might make a good argument for why LF is a bad skill altogether...

3.

Quote:

Reality might be a bit different: queuing these attacks under IAS is not gonna be perfect

After some practice I got much better at it. No one's perfect, but it's quite easy to bring it in MUCH faster than 3 normal-speed attacks.

4.

Quote:

and the 1.5s execution time (under +33 IAS) is not exactly ideal for the 3s recharge of FF.

I was accepting your premise that the initial l-o-d killed the target. Insofar as that premise is true, it's not a problem since 1.5 sec travel time to the next target isn't unrealistic (especially if MoP+DB killed everything adjacent). Insofar as that premise is false, I'm going to run JS+FF+DB+MS to get the best of both worlds.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Excuse me WHAT ? no.
Btw , MSDB has more potential due to its AoE but lets not take that as a "hey a do AoE dmg sometimes and you dont so i win" card because its so far from reality that is almost lying.

You have this remarkably foolish habit of automatically contesting anything I post simply because I posted it. Sometimes I wonder if you'd contradict me if I posted "in a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two legs."

As usual, you happen to be wrong about the activation times. (Car is right. Wiki1. Wiki2.) But even if you were right, you'd still be wrong about the larger point. Let me make this quite general, and put it in bold, so even you can't miss it: LF is an inferior skill for doing AoE damage by triggering MoP because anything+anything+DB is (a) always going to produce at least 6 AoE bursts, while 3 auto attacks under LF are always going to produce less than 6 AoE bursts, and (b) always going to activate as fast or faster than 3 auto-attacks. It's as simple as that.

syphonus · Nov 05, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yes. Which might make a good argument for why LF is a bad skill altogether...

LF is an inferior skill for doing AoE damage by triggering MoP because anything+anything+DB is (a) always going to produce at least 6 AoE bursts, while 3 auto attacks under LF are always going to produce less than 6 AoE bursts, and (b) always going to activate as fast or faster than 3 auto-attacks. It's as simple as that.

This. Though I hate it mostly because of the cast time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Cue me screaming JAGGED EXHAUSTING MOEBIUS BLOSSOM (again)

Cue me screaming WOTA IS BETTER THAN LF IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS again

a few deep breaths. there we go.

Tenebrae · Nov 05, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You have this remarkably foolish habit of automatically contesting anything I post simply because I posted it.

Really ? huh , how fun , i had the same impression about you ( cough cough*Rangerforum* cough ). At least i dont insult and drop some random BS , i guess that unbalances the "equation".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

As usual, you happen to be wrong about the activation times. (Car is right. Wiki1. Wiki2.) But even if you were right, you'd still be wrong about the larger point.

The thing is that you spelled it wrong but you are never going to admit it. I dont care about MoP but as i aswered to this part:

- "Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks"

Wich is false ; 2 autoattacks with LF happen in 0,88s with 33% IAS because it double strikes and i dont know in your country but in mine 1 autoattack wich is a double strike = 2 autoattacks ( 80% of the times if you like ) so no , is not faster. It would be FASTER than 4 autoattacks ( about 0,10s if car is right ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Let me make this quite general, and put it in bold, so even you can't miss it: LF is an inferior skill for doing AoE damage by triggering MoP because anything+anything+DB is (a) always going to produce at least 6 AoE bursts, while 3 auto attacks under LF are always going to produce less than 6 AoE bursts, and (b) always going to activate as fast or faster than 3 auto-attacks. It's as simple as that.

I never said otherwise but your temper made you believe so , not my fault. Maybe your problem ( or mine ) is misunderstanding but for me 1 autoattack with LF = 2 , because it double strikes .... so with 3 = 6 bursts from MoP .
A regular X+Y+DB is = time of 3 autoattacks with LF wich means 6 hits/bursts from MoP. JS+FF+DB are a special case , those 1/2 seg activation can make them a little ( 0,09~ sec ) faster than 2 LF autoattacks.

Wiki link is great but :
"Standard spells and skills with an activation time have an aftercast delay of 0.75 seconds."

"Most attack skills have no intrinsic aftercast delay as they use the timing of the attacker's weapon"

Hmmm , an attack skill with an activation time that halves the timing of the attacke's weapon.... quite weird. In my experience under 33% IAS , JS+FF is more likely to happen in 0,88sec than in 0,66sec ( wich maths say it should be ) but anyway , im not going to bother for a 0,09sec diff with LF DualAttks.

My "larger point" wasnt about MoP , my point was MS/DB has more potential due to its AoE dmg feature but that potential doesnt give REAL advantage ..... sometimes it will , sometimes not so that cant be taken for granted . Hope i made myself clear.

Chthon · Nov 05, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I never said otherwise

Then who said:

Quote:

Excuse me WHAT ? no.

Quote:

"Much more, even, since the entire chain (4 hits) activates faster than 2 autoattacks"

Wich is false ; 2 autoattacks with LF happen in 0,88s with 33% IAS because it double strikes and i dont know in your country but in mine 1 autoattack wich is a double strike = 2 autoattacks ( 80% of the times if you like ) so no , is not faster. It would be FASTER than 4 autoattacks ( about 0,10s if car is right ).

Quit trying to muddy the issue by redefining "auto attack." The second hit on an auto attack is not an independent "auto attack" any more than the second hit on DB is an independent dual attack. My point was that JS+FF+DB delivers hits faster than auto-attacking under LF (as does MS+DB). This is undeniable true. So stop trying to weasel around it by playing with the terminology.

Quote:

Maybe your problem ( or mine ) is misunderstanding but for me 1 autoattack with LF = 2 ,

Your problem. You can't nitpick about a 0.125 sec delay (that doesn't exist) and then turn around and lazily round 80% up to 100%. An auto attack under LF with 14 mastery yields 1.8 hits, not 2. If you can't be assed to work with decimal points, you shouldn't even venture into this sort of conversation.

Quote:

The thing is that you spelled it wrong but you are never going to admit it.

Uh... what?