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Old Apr 01, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32   #21
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Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard View Post
Mark Of Pain nukers were used before, but we found through trial and error that people were too stupid to target the MoP's call often enough to warrant it's use.
This is the Truth. Melee like to see the big number they are doing with GDW and BuH then of course don't look at the called targets and the MoP ever more-so get's annoyed.

Countless runs of UW with a mix of physicals from "Varda's Friendslist" I never found 4 Physicals that actually followed the MoP's Target.

When i actually proved my point by afking for 5 minutes that's when we started rolling out OoV. I hate being a party Bitch but it was more fun then not actually doing anything and getting bored with people.
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Old Apr 01, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46   #22
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Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
For corpse-rich areas, a OoU MM is probably a superior choice to SoS. The damage output and tanking potential is much higher.

...

you gain a significant, if short-lived boost from BuH (which multiplies with your stacked buffs).
An advantage spirits have over minions is that spirits count as allies with regards to BuH. If spirits receive some damage then BuH can easily last almost as long as its recharge, there's also a half decent chance one of the ERs will have less than 50% of their max health.
Otherwise yes, and an OoU MM can bring EBSoH easily.



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Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
All variants on Orders+SoH builds should probably all be using Mark of Fury and Blood Bond after that last round of buffs.
Blood Bond; yes. Mark of Fury; not really.
I've already commented on the Order bars and Mark of Fury is only really necessary if you run OoV and you have a couple of Warriors in your team. Imbagons don't need it (and you don't really need them) and Sins and Dervs don't need adrenaline.
You also won't get MoF on every target so the extra gain won't be very consistent. If you want extra adrenaline you're better off going for OoP+DF.
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Old Apr 01, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35   #23
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Nice post.

Pitty that people cant read english or are always trying to get poeple down.
Seems like they bought GW to play with henchies...
Anyway i hope people see this post and start playing other stuff in pve rather then [tank] [Fire Ele] [Fire Ele] [SS] [SoS] [Imbagon] [HB] [UA].
Its a pitty how a ga,e like GW wehre you can use "1 billion of skills" and do so many or even more team builds is stagneted to 1 kind of build in general pug pve group... Even worse is the closed mind of the persons who play it...
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 02:42 AM // 02:42   #24
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
You contradict yourself a little here, Cho. You say the MoP pays off more if it can get ahead and cast before the physicals arrive at called target, which wastes less physical-running-to-target time. Mindbender does this, aswell as speeding up casting, which is very much necessary in a team that already kills as fast at the 4x sin combo.
IMO, the MoP staying ahead has less to do with cast time and more to do with reading the mob, finding off targets that are dying to AP before the MoPed target dies, and knowing your physicals well enough that you know what they're going to hit next. (Back when Car was still pretty active with his sin I had a such good feel for what he was going to hit that I never even bothered calling. (Hint: 80% of the time Car c-spaces )) Cast time is still an element, just not the primary one.

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As for BuH... There is nothing more satisfying than bigger numbers. Simply nothing better to put there. Don't need PI, GDW, EBsoH or anything else. Therefore- BuH!
I don't think Mindbender or BuH are bad, they're just not my top choices. I really like FH! on any AP build. Especially if the melee aren't reliable at staying on target. I'm also a really big fan of Technobabble. With a decent kill rate it's a perma AoE daze. Also, the monster AI is really open to abuse with it if you use it to initiate aggro. I'd probably rank BuH after those two. YMLAD makes for a nice interrupt if there's something in the zone you really need to stop. Not sure if I'd rank Mindbender before or after YMLAD
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00   #25
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Why does the MoP build not have a AoE cover hex?

EB is kinda meh with SY and PB/PS. Stick RH on there and you are set.
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59   #26
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Originally Posted by Hatchet Child View Post
Why does the MoP build not have a AoE cover hex?
Probably because whoever pinged the build forgot to change EB to RH.


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Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
I don't think Mindbender or BuH are bad, they're just not my top choices. I really like FH! on any AP build. Especially if the melee aren't reliable at staying on target. I'm also a really big fan of Technobabble. With a decent kill rate it's a perma AoE daze. Also, the monster AI is really open to abuse with it if you use it to initiate aggro. I'd probably rank BuH after those two. YMLAD makes for a nice interrupt if there's something in the zone you really need to stop. Not sure if I'd rank Mindbender before or after YMLAD
If I run AP-MoP then I expect some decency on the part of the physicals. Usually at least a couple of them follow calls to some extent (didn't know pressing t was so difficult).
Because I'm running with humans, I typically don't need the level of defense Technobabble provides and so it goes shoved behind YMLAD, FH, BuH and Mindbender when it comes to me choosing which PvE skills to take.
FH is largely unecessary - just one physical can kill quickly enough if you time AP properly. It's more useful when depending on heroes/henchmen or physicals you don't know at all.
YMLAD is nice for knockdown/interrupt - cast it if you spot a nasty spell (res, Meteor Shower, etc) or the target tries to run away.
Mindbender can be invaluable when interrupts are present (but if there are lots you'll probably still be hit by them). Casting Barbs under it is less likely to make you miss AP too (that's the real gain).
BuH is just a plain damage increase and a good one at that.

Last edited by Xenomortis; Apr 02, 2010 at 11:07 AM // 11:07..
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33   #27
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Making changes to the builds when Arrogant can be bothered to change the links. If you want any changes, just mention.
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58   #28
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Er backline + buffer/cleaner x frontline = hella fun.

Generally try to do this once in a while when i can persuade people to not wanna spank n tank..ugh..tho i usually get landed been a bitch monk or mes cleaning with soh's. oh well

Reminds me of the old Ursan way ^ but much less generic and much more fun.

Nice listing of bars, personally id change a few skills around but hey! it says just a basic guideline to effectiveness, so i wont pick on preference

/likes mini 'guide'
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54   #29
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
If I run AP-MoP then I expect some decency on the part of the physicals. Usually at least a couple of them follow calls to some extent (didn't know pressing t was so difficult).
Sometimes is not as easy as pressing T and space. Sometimes you did a good block and you are bloody surrounded and target is behind another target that blocks your way and since you are surrounded you cant make a move.
Many times MoP callers ( and yes , i said "many" ) call the skill and mobs move making that skill useless ..... and sometimes when they call it is too late. Many mistakes can happen so MoP caller dont see big numbers and some of them are not phys probs.
When you are dealing bloody lots of damage with 3+ physicals that are buffed to hell and can take out a target by itselves in 4 secs sometimes MoP happen not to be worth.

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
Because I'm running with humans, I typically don't need the level of defense Technobabble provides and so it goes shoved behind YMLAD, FH, BuH and Mindbender when it comes to me choosing which PvE skills to take.
Well i agree except for BuH and Mindbender , those are inferior to techbabble. In a bunched casting mobs techbabble can save a lot of damage and make those targets very weak. BuH is a simple damage buff with an awful reuse and mindbender is redundant when you pack ANY dmg reduction skill/block skill .
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03   #30
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
BuH is a simple damage buff with an awful reuse
AP nullifies the usual bad upkeep/recharge ratio ^ so thats not so bad, and with spirits and infoozers there are often enough people under 50% to cap the duration even if you naff up your ap proc.

It also help's when as you mentioned, not all the phys can actually get to your focus target for wiping mobs easier.. Tho i never found it 100% needed, more as a nice bonus 50~damage mops are nice

Also agree with Techno been epic. With the amount of phys packets been thrown around you either the the gdw kd or an interupt..epic shutdown. But again with so much defence been thrown around, sy, reckless, prot bond, spirit bonds, ect im not sure its needed either ^ but personalty i like it

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
mindbender is redundant when you pack ANY dmg reduction skill/block skill .
Some times that 3/4 cast of ap seems to take an eternity bender helps you catch that ap when your phys are rolling through hard. Again, i dont see it been super needed either ^

Last edited by maxxfury; Apr 02, 2010 at 03:07 PM // 15:07..
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24   #31
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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
Well i agree except for BuH and Mindbender , those are inferior to techbabble. In a bunched casting mobs techbabble can save a lot of damage and make those targets very weak. BuH is a simple damage buff with an awful reuse and mindbender is redundant when you pack ANY dmg reduction skill/block skill .
You're under Prot Bond. There is very, very little that truly threatens you. There is simply no reason to bring Technobabble unless there are some very dangerous skills. If you're not under Prot Bond then you have a better argument.
BuH is recharged by AP - it's a constant 25% increase in damage.
Mindbender is not made redundant by damage reduction in any way. I cannot possibly fathom how you reached that conclusion.
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32   #32
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
You're under Prot Bond. There is very, very little that truly threatens you. There is simply no reason to bring Technobabble unless there are some very dangerous skills. If you're not under Prot Bond then you have a better argument.
BuH is recharged by AP - it's a constant 25% increase in damage.
Mindbender is not made redundant by damage reduction in any way. I cannot possibly fathom how you reached that conclusion.
Not to mention the fact that in Hard Mode, and without AoE attacks (Death Bloosom's cast-off packets don't trigger Daze) an AoE daze is pointless, seeing as most of you will be attacking the same target. Also Hard Mode foes cast ridiculously fast, so not much will change in this team apart from the initial interrupt from the application.

Last edited by HigherMinion; Apr 02, 2010 at 03:35 PM // 15:35..
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55   #33
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Originally Posted by HigherMinion View Post
Making changes to the builds when Arrogant can be bothered to change the links. If you want any changes, just mention.
If anyone thinks they have better builds, then by all means post them (pvx link or code).

I was also thinking of adding some tips/strategies for some harder areas (e.g. how to do 4H).
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59   #34
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Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard View Post
If anyone thinks they have better builds, then by all means post them (pvx link or code).

I was also thinking of adding some tips/strategies for some harder areas (e.g. how to do 4H).
If you play With Higher Minion and Varda, I give them most of the builds i use even though i don't play as much as i want to anymore i just Theorize most stuff. I don't see much use out of WoB in the Ootv bar it's Energy hungry if you are not careful with it.

The Zerg tactics on 4h works well with MoP. Which is stand on the spawn of Kazhad Dhuum and Zerg him and his Dryders with MoP spikes then run to Ghozer Dhuum and repeat the process. (This works without MoP easily enough aswell)

Be mindful when you kill Ghozer Dhuum sometimes there is a Skeleton running around after you kill him which if not killed can be kited all the way back to the reaper and not helping the situation on the other side.

That's just my two Pence.
┬ČJusti


EDIT: Just use this Link for the MoP Nuker Template all the varieties for skill choices are there and all are perfectly viable. It's all about taste on the 3 PvE skills you take. I think this is Moloch's mock up for pvxwiki i could be wrong.

Last edited by Hatchet Child; Apr 02, 2010 at 10:09 PM // 22:09..
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Old Apr 02, 2010, 10:21 PM // 22:21   #35
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Originally Posted by Hatchet Child View Post
If you play With Higher Minion and Varda, I give them most of the builds i use even though i don't play as much as i want to anymore i just Theorize most stuff. I don't see much use out of WoB in the Ootv bar it's Energy hungry if you are not careful with it.

The Zerg tactics on 4h works well with MoP. Which is stand on the spawn of Kazhad Dhuum and Zerg him and his Dryders with MoP spikes then run to Ghozer Dhuum and repeat the process. (This works without MoP easily enough aswell)

Be mindful when you kill Ghozer Dhuum sometimes there is a Skeleton running around after you kill him which if not killed can be kited all the way back to the reaper and not helping the situation on the other side.

That's just my two Pence.
┬ČJusti


EDIT: Just use this Link for the MoP Nuker Template all the varieties for skill choices are there and all are perfectly viable. It's all about taste on the 3 PvE skills you take. I think this is Moloch's mock up for pvxwiki i could be wrong.
Yeah that's one option for 4h, but requires a rit to stall the other side (sometimes hard to find ones who can do it properly).

I think keeping 1 ER close to reaper and keeping it alive while the rest kill (nearby so bonds are maintained) is easier to do.
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Old Apr 03, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20   #36
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Originally Posted by Hatchet Child View Post
The Zerg tactics on 4h works well with MoP. Which is stand on the spawn of Kazhad Dhuum and Zerg him and his Dryders with MoP spikes then run to Ghozer Dhuum and repeat the process. (This works without MoP easily enough aswell)
To expand on this:
1. Clear out the rider near the reaper (+dryders, patrol, and pops), the riders on either side of the reaper, the "center" rider (+skellies), and the rider by the entry to pits. (Center and pits are optional, but not clearing them forces you to waste time waiting for the Horsemen to move or risk an overaggro that you don't have time for.)
2A. Rit gets into position to stall Thul Za and Marduck by dropping spirits over and over while retreating slowly.
2B. 6 people get into position just below Kazhad's spawn point. (You want to make sure that they don't aggro onto different people when they spawn, causing them to spread out, which can happen if you're literally on top of them.) Gank the whole mob with 1 quick MoP bomb. Repeat on Gozer. Run back to finish off the other two. They should be just reaching the corner if you ganked properly.
2C. 1 person takes the quest, then runs up to join the 6. If something goes wrong with the gank on Kazad, their job changes to grabbing aggro on Gozer and dragging him up into the 6 (which is no doubt risking a wipe, but still less risky than letting Gozer go by and then trying to catch him in time).

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Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard
I think keeping 1 ER close to reaper and keeping it alive while the rest kill (nearby so bonds are maintained) is easier to do.
I've heard this floated as a possibility, but never done it or heard anyone say they actually tested it. I'm very surprised the ER covering the reaper can maintain energy with 2 whole mobs pounding the reaper. Or do they PS him instead?
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Old Apr 03, 2010, 07:21 AM // 07:21   #37
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I've heard this floated as a possibility, but never done it or heard anyone say they actually tested it. I'm very surprised the ER covering the reaper can maintain energy with 2 whole mobs pounding the reaper. Or do they PS him instead?
Yeah, I tested it with minion. PB and spammed; I had no energy problems at all.
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Old Apr 03, 2010, 09:24 AM // 09:24   #38
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
You're under Prot Bond. There is very, very little that truly threatens you. There is simply no reason to bring Technobabble unless there are some very dangerous skills. If you're not under Prot Bond then you have a better argument.
I dont use prot bond but i use minion walls and they are not under any ench. I find they tend to survive a lot more when you use tbabble on key targets but thats preference.

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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
BuH is recharged by AP - it's a constant 25% increase in damage.
Mindbender is not made redundant by damage reduction in any way. I cannot possibly fathom how you reached that conclusion.
Quoting myself
"When you are dealing bloody lots of damage with 3+ physicals that are buffed to hell and can take out a target by itselves in 4 secs sometimes MoP happen not to be worth"

BuH is only worth on 1 char , the AP user and bleh , still think a 25% dmg increase is behind of the effects you can have with techbabble. And for the record , i still love more EVAS instead mind blender. Can give a good use to barbs and MoP if phys do not follow target or whatever.
I guess i mistake mindblender with the other asuran skill but still like evas more.

Last edited by Tenebrae; Apr 03, 2010 at 09:27 AM // 09:27..
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Old Apr 03, 2010, 11:48 AM // 11:48   #39
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I've heard this floated as a possibility, but never done it or heard anyone say they actually tested it. I'm very surprised the ER covering the reaper can maintain energy with 2 whole mobs pounding the reaper. Or do they PS him instead?
We've done it at least twice now.
One ER can camp the reaper keeping Prot Bond on him and half the other team (Life Attunement helps too) and spam Spirit Bond.
The other ER can deal with the rest of the team that takes out Kazhad Dhuum and Ghozer Dhuum and their escorts that come from the North-East side.

This method is generally safer because you don't depend on a Rit to hold one side whilst you quickly make do with the above at their spawns. It's vital the team doesn't go near the Reaper though until you've fully dealt with the first two Horsemen and their friends; if you do aggro can easily break and the ERs
may get overwhelmed or caught in multiple Meteor Showers.



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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
I dont use prot bond but i use minion walls and they are not under any ench. I find they tend to survive a lot more when you use tbabble on key targets but thats preference.
Given the context of the thread, this argument isn't really applicable. In situations where you don't already have masses of defense, then yes, I would agree that Technobabble has good uses.



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Originally Posted by Tenebrae View Post
BuH is only worth on 1 char , the AP user and bleh , still think a 25% dmg increase is behind of the effects you can have with techbabble. And for the record , i still love more EVAS instead mind blender. Can give a good use to barbs and MoP if phys do not follow target or whatever.
I guess i mistake mindblender with the other asuran skill but still like evas more.
The first bit I don't understand. BuH is worth it on anyone who wants to increase their damage output. On the physicals it increases the damage of any buffs on them if they choose to use it and on the AP-MoP it's a flat 25% increase - that boosts MoP (+50 damage) and Barbs (don't think it boosts EVAS but it might).

Sorry for not being clear, but I regard EVAS as a given on any AP-MoP bar and pretty much a core skill to the build (just because it's so strong with the setup). I have two free PvE skill slots and about 5 PvE skills to choose from.
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Old Apr 03, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03   #40
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post
don't think it boosts EVAS but it might
I'm pretty sure it does boost his damage, i kinda got all excited when i first seen it under BuH and opted for using on an OoU build and Ebsoh. Sadly it didn't do anything to the minions.

This was attempted when Eotn came out, so in regards it's probably "Working as intended" now.
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