Curse

Indian · May 01, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Inde, you might wanna sticky this.

Lukahn · May 01, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

I also concur that first come first serve sucks for those of us who can't be online all the time. Twice already I have been beaten out (by the same person, no less) for an item I could have used.

Although it's not really fair to tie the hands of the OP by making the giveaway items random or lottery, it should at least be strongly suggested so it's not just greedy trolls who lurk and constantly refresh to grab the best stuff being offered.

One other idea that would likely be way more work than anyone would want to put in is to keep a stickied list of posters/IGNs of people who have received free items and then limit it to one free item ever XX number of days. Such a list would require a mod/admin to maintain, however, as it couldn't be editable by just anyone (otherwise people could take themselves off the list).

Or it could be strongly suggested to only request one item every few days/1 week, and then go with the honor system (and perhaps issue warnings for those who blatantly or repeatedly break the rules)? I'd like to think that most people are generally nice/honest and would abide by that rule.

*Darcy* · May 01, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

One method that might work:

1. OP posts giveaway list & server with GMT time.

2. Replies contain IGN & server with GMT time with no item request allowed.

3. OP puts IGNs on Friend list and sets meet to give poster choice of remaining items.

4. OP edits post to show remaining items.

This does away with the "posted first" problem and allows the OP some leeway. Basically, it's throwing your name in the hat and hoping that you will get something.

__________________________

For those concerned that people obtain free items so they can sell. It doesn't matter. I give items, collector drops, materials, weapons away to low level players all the time. I tell them to sell what ever they want, as gold for armor or materials can be as important as a rare gold weapon to a player at certain stages of the game.

Coridan · May 01, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

The way i think I am going to handle this when I do my giveaway is to go with the first come first served basis... Although I will put in a note at the bottom of my post that if someone "edits" thier post they will no longer be eligible....I can see someone not recognizing a skin or whatever and post for sword A and then come back later and see that sword B was more rare or what have you then edit thier post to change it to sword B so they are the first poster....not really sure if this will work or not....maybe i should just go with merit as in who I think needs it the most....

Yang Whirlwind · May 01, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I think this i a great addition to Guru,- already gave away a bunch of mods and more stuff will follow.

I already see people doing their own screening of "applicants", but some ready made standards might be useful, like:
First-Post-First-Serve
All can post. First to post for an item will get it. No edits or the post is void. X day window to pick up the item or you loose it.
Needy-People-Only
OP will be the sole judge of that. Anybody can post, but OP gets the final say as to who he chooses,- no complaints!
Lottery
Put in your number between x-xxx. OP picks a number randomly,- the first poster to hit it will get the item. Not edits or post is void. X day window to pick up the item or you loose it.
Random Selection
OP will start whispering people at a random chosen time,- the first poster for each item to answer the whisper will get it. No edits or post is void.

The important thing as far as i see it is that OP must specify which rules he abide by. I hope this will keep down disgruntled posters and help avoid people getting banned for flaming.

In a by-note i might add that my "first-post-first-serve" thread went quite well with some happy takers and a lot of smiles. (and this was cheap 500-2K stuff)

Cheers

Zeph- · May 01, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I agree this is kind of an hard issue because though I hardly post i visit these forums daily.. And if you say like over a month old you have the players who just recently started the game. But there are also people with fow armors asking for items.. And they might have been a member for a long time. But i don't really think they need it..

Zeph

o m g pizowned · May 01, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

the order to which its given away is to the OPs discretion...so they should need to say :
1. First post first serve
2. OP gives it to who they want, not who posts first
3. anything else they wish to do (reasonable, of course)

shrouded^god · May 01, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Another problem Ive had this my first giveaway thread was with one person mostly. At first he requested an item, with no problem. So I chose him to receive up the item, first thing he says is "Is it req9 and gold?" so then I knew I had made a bad choice by choosing him...so indeed it was so I said yes. And then he asked about an item from my thread which had a skin which was a little uncommon...I told him that yes that item was also req 9 and gold. He then said that he made a mistake that he wanted the latter item. I told him to take the first item and be happy.
So a few hours pass...and I get a whisper from him, asking if he can trade in item #1 for item #2...that he needs item #2 bad. I ignore the whisper...about 4 hours later I get yet another PM asking if I have anything to give him before I do another thread...and that he 'preferred perfect sword or scythe mods'. I'll also let you know that this warrior showed up to pick up item #1 which in full black FoW...
At first I was excited about the section...being able to help others...but that event as well as a few other complaints I got within 24 hours is beyond sickening.
Although 90% of the people who received items from me were more than thankful...there are several who could ruin a thing like this for the community.

Perhaps we could instill 'universal' rules and "blacklist" certain people as long as proof is given...let a mod go over the 'case' and "ban" them from this section or simple have a blacklist in a rules post which would encourage posters to not give items to these 'blacklisted' posters.

StueyG · May 01, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

One thing I am going to post on here for sure. This is not a discussion sub-forum. I have seen several posts which were just random comments on threads and have PM'd people. Please keep it to posts relating to the forum only.

Next is that it is up to the OP if they wish to give stuff to people or not. Honestly, if I post on here, and am trying to help out low lvl people and someone in FoW armor shows up, I would probably say "this is for someone that needs it" and give it to someone else. If people start getting greedy then use the ignore list. (even though mine is usually full from things like this as I have given stuff away randomly in game and had the same problems). Honestly even giving stuff to a lvl 8 with ascalon armor or such could be a fake as well, because I know of people that have done that kinda stuff before.

Anatos · May 03, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

To be honest, I think it should be entirely upto the discretion of the OPs, who they give their gear to. Theres a few problems I can see occuring though, which will need rules and policing for ASAP. Things like 1 member looking here and posting in each and every give away thread, then proceeding to PM on forums or whisper the OP ingame for the items. Putting a few days ban on the IP of the user could help to deter mindless spammage, having a blacklist of IGNs for people whove whisper spammed. Then again, someone who's been sighted in multiple threads asking for different things, has more than likely just seen something "shiny" that could sell, or the *just have to have it, because its shiny* instead of actually needing it.

I like the idea of having a "Edited posts will be void" and a "You may only ask for 1 item, no "If I cant have that, then Id like this or that"".

It should also be the responsibility of the OP to give a deadline and contact times. I would also suggest not to put up rare items or gear that will sell fast for a profit - yes, it means it clogs our inventories a bit more, but also cuts down on those who would be jumping at getting a "free meal". But again, that would really be to the discretion of the OP.

On a seperate note, I think this forum is an awesome idea, if its controlled "environment", normally i reserve freebies for guildies and allies, but this gives me a chance to help out someone I don't know.

Davros Uitar · May 03, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I am thinking of putting up a giveaway thread, and it is the very idea of giving something of value to a starter and instead find a L20 in full FOW that I am wrestling with.

Somthing I was considering was placing limits on certain items - ie this goes free to a L8-18 mesmer. If they don't front as the specified character then they miss out. Sure there will still be some sharks roaming the pool looking for a quick bite, but that is going to be par for the course. It will be a little frustrating though if they want to sit on mid level hoax characters in every class. If you can't beat em - make em earn it

.

ChainsawFilms · May 03, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

I'm a newbie to the game, only playing a week and having a lot fun. This thread seems great and I am thankful for any help I get. So far, I've had one Mini-Piggie, which is superb fun, and another kind person has saved an Axe Hilt and Grip for me, when I catch them online. All great.

If the idea is to help out newbies, then you've got to work out who needs the items and who doesn't. From what I've read in this forum, coming new to the game I'm effectively screwed financially, as I'll never be able to amass the kind of money the original players have due to changes in drop rates etc. I don't really have a problem with that - someone who has been playing for 2 years deserves more money than someone who has played it for say 6 months.

But if giving away items does help even things out, even just a little, I think it's a good idea.

I do think any item you get for free, you should be obliged to keep it for say a month or two. You'll always get people exploiting this kind of generosity, and players clammering for rare, expensive items only to immediately sell them on sucks.

Just my 2c.

Colas Treekin · May 03, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

i opened a giveaway thread for two reasons, one i wanted to offload an insane amount of mods, and two i thought there might be people out there that needed them. all in all i think it has been a success (see my thread for feedback) but i can see that people might try to abuse the system.

i don't like the idea of a blacklist, i think that will not really be in the spirit of the forum. i say, use your head as an OP. if someone is obviously in good order then don't give them something. the only reason i've gone in for a couple of things on this thread is that i have no money, despite being level 20 and having some nice items it seems no-one wants to buy anything so i am stuck with 52g!

people like Dralspire can easily spot those who are trying to dupe the OP, and they are the sort who are going to be giving away the really valuable items. That said, to those who have got mods from me, they have really appreciated it.

I wouldn't know FOW armour if it hit me in the face. I can only go on my gut feelnig, that is what the OPs should do. If they think someone is in it to abuse the system then reserve the right to back out of any deal. But lets not be all legalistic with the blacklist, that's not what the game is about.

LifeInfusion · May 03, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Some of the concerns that the Guru staff has in this section is the way to manage it, prevent people from creating multiple accounts just to get stuff, etc.
...

================================================== ======
This is my personal take, take it for whatever you think it is worth, Inde. I will try to explain my method for how I give stuff out in-game and on this forum (which acts as a supplement to my sporadic giveaways in-game).

I think randomness is not the way to go, as simply it allows for abuse. If you go by post date, it allows for an undeniable benchmark for who gets what, since the posts are clearly visible whereas any form of randomness is never random. It also (somewhat) prevents people from asking for the same thing.
In addition, I have my own little rule where people cannot have posted in high end. It might be just be my way of doing things, but I think someone with a high end weapon or gold to buy one shouldn't be asking for free stuff out of common courtesy.
Regardless, clearly defined rules are needed in the original post BOLDED for emphasis so people that skim don't miss it.

As for formatting, I do my best to update the page once a day. I believe that the ones to be given away should be defined in a separate section of the post for clear indication that they have not been taken yet. If the thread isn't separated into "To be given away; given away; and waiting on pickup" it leads to confusion as to whether or not the item is no longer available. images and cross outs lead to chaos. See sell forums for an example of what happens when the OP has to update the thread at a fast pace with images and crossing out of text.

Secondary accounts have always been a problem, both on the auction system and on this forum. This section of the forum will probably instigate some greedy people setting up extra accounts. The burden falls on the administration and moderators, and it is a sad thing. For me to release some of the burden on the mods/admins, the way to avoid this is to see whether the person has actually posted anything, whether the join date was before the creation of the giveaway forum, and whether the character name matched another users' character name.

Logically speaking, people have to be brain dead if they start posting "WTB" in this giveaways forum, since nobody is obligated to give free stuff away. It is done as a service to guru community, and "WTB" style threads are a blatant misuse of this section.

Regardless of technicalities, the ideals of the section are on target (at least IMO).

- "Infusion"

Inde · May 03, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Thank you all so much for your feedback. I'm reading all your ideas and suggestions and in the next few days you'll see a more formal "rules" or "guidelines" sticky to help out both the charitable people who will start threads in this forum and the takers.

I have to mention one thing that won't be done is a blacklist. We don't allow one even for scammers. Dralspire can give firsthand knowledge on the amount of spam he has received because of requests in game so I'm going to be speaking with him and getting some ideas as well but I can't ban/blacklist/or even enforce something that happens in game.

I'll keep the thread open for any last minute suggestions. Thanks again.

Lukahn · May 03, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I don't know if I like the idea of someone limiting it by level, as Davros suggested. I just started playing Prophecies a few months ago and went through every quest until Ascension. I was level 20 very soon after I hit Lion's Arch before I even went into the jungle because of this. So even though I was (and still am) very green, my "level" wasn't a good indication of my experience. Up until just recently I wasn't even using Runes on my armor, mainly because I didn't understand how they worked.

I also agree with Chainsaw. Most of the prices have dropped considerably, I have an inventory full of stuff that supposedly was going to sell for 1k at least and I couldn't sell it for 100g. Those who are late to the GW bandwagon don't have the luxury of selling stuff to make money, it seems. Unfortunately, there really is no good way of determining who is "needy" and who isn't. Would be kind of nice if we could determine account age in game for others. Having someone post their age in a screenshot would be one idea, but even that can be faked.

Personally, I really like the way that Dralspire did his giveaway - it's going to be a person picked at random, and it has allowed alot of people to get in on the lottery. To me, this seems the fairest way, rather than the person who can lurk on forums all day constantly refreshing so they can be first to claim something. I don't think randomness can never be truly random, as LifeInfusion suggests - at least random lottery. Maybe the "Random" definition Yang gave isn't truly random, but if I have a list of 6 people that asked for an item, I'll simply assign them a number and roll a dice to see who gets it. Nothing more random than that.

I think the OP definitely needs to put in a "cutoff" date for this method. Having times posted as to when they'll be online for the person to collect is good practice too. Of course they'll want to PM the person on the forums to inform them they've won.

Most of this seems like common sense, though. I think the tough issue is preventing abuse, and from the discussion it just doesn't seem to have a good solution, since we have no way of being able to tell who is new and who isn't. And what would be the cutoff anyway? Am i new once I've hit Ascension? Am I new still if I've finished the game? What if I never do either, but instead have been lurking around the beginning areas of the game for a year? Is it the amount of time playing? What if I started playing last year, but only play casually so don't have that much total time in? Or took a break and am coming back still "green"?

It's a problem anytime you give something away, in game or in real life. Once it's been given, you just don't know for certain what that item will be used for. I don't think there really is a good solution for it, unfortunately.

TheRaven · May 03, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Hmmm, i wish I had some good ideas to prevent the greedy trolls from getting all the good stuff, but I don't. I'll be starting a thread soon with a few items. Nothing expensive. I have 14k in the bank currently so don't expect anything with a "WOW!" factor. Just a few necessities.

I do not have easy forum access when I'm in the game, so I'll post a thread with "do not reply here" instructions. Whisper me in game and first come first serve. I'd like some suggestions as to how I can get the stuff to the ones that need it most, but i guess nothing is foolproof. Just because a level 5 Elementalist comes to pick up my staff doesn't mean that their other character isn't a Level 20 Ranger in full FOW armor with 500 ectos in the bank.

I like the idea of blocking the forum to "pre-searing cadets" or just to accounts that were created less than a month ago, but since I'm using a whisper ingame method, I can't weed folks that way.

Lukahn · May 03, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Why would you want to block the forum for "pre-searing cadets"? If the intent is to give it to new players who need the stuff, wouldn't they *be* the "pre-searing cadets" in the forums?? I don't get this logic.

One other thing I wanted to mention was something I just noticed with Dr. Matteo's giveaway and a few others. I (and likely other new players) haven't played long enough to recognize all the various item icons in the game. If you really *don't* want to give stuff to new players, this is a sure fire way to do it. For instance, I can tell Matteo has a sheild, a few inscriptions, and a staff head in his inventory. The rest just look like random wands and staffs and such, which I have no idea which is which.

To aid the new players, it would be useful (although I realize more time consuming for the OP) to list out the items, or at least state what profession they are for.

TheRaven · May 03, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukahn

Why would you want to block the forum for "pre-searing cadets"? If the intent is to give it to new players who need the stuff, wouldn't they *be* the "pre-searing cadets" in the forums?? I don't get this logic.

I understand what you're saying and I don't have a good solution. My "logic" for blocking the cadets is this: Player GreedyTroll has an account here and is a well known poster. GreedyTroll replies to many many many giveaway threads with gimme gimme gimme requests. A lot of givers recognize GreedyTroll's name and the moderators decide to implement a 1 request per day/per week rule. GreedyTroll hates this rule and decides he isn't going to honor it. GreedyTroll decides instead to make some more accounts on the forum. So now he has 10 different forum accounts all requesting stuff in the giveaway section. I've participated in many forums and I've seen this happen a lot on all of them.

Also "pre-searing cadets" have not contributed much to the community yet so should they be allowed the privilege of requesting stuff? I don't know. There are of course 2 ways to look at it. Perhaps it's best to leave it up to the giver whether or not he gives to a pre-searing cadet.

Personally, my giveaways won't contain high end stuff. I doubt anyone will make an account just to snag one of my items. I'll post some useful greens and some novelty items. Stuff collectors will want, but not something that can be re-sold for a fortune.

I don't think new players should be given expensive weapons. I know a lot of folks will disagree with that statement, but hear me out. New players need experience more than anything. I would prefer to give a junky max purple with bad mods to a new player than a nice gold or green weapon. The new player needs a functional weapon that he can use to practice and learn the game mechanics with. The value of a rare skin gold will be lost on a new player and he may even merch it without realizing it's worth. When your son turns 16 and gets his driver's license do you buy him an expensive porsche or do you get him a dependable used honda?

We need to help the new players, but not by throwing gold their way. Help them by offering to go with them on quests. Explain skill interactions to them. Show them wiki. Answer their innocent "how do I get armor?" questions without humiliating them.

Lukahn · May 03, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I understand what you're saying and I don't have a good solution. My "logic" for blocking the cadets is this: Player GreedyTroll has an account here and is a well known poster. GreedyTroll replies to many many many giveaway threads with gimme gimme gimme requests. A lot of givers recognize GreedyTroll's name and the moderators decide to implement a 1 request per day/per week rule. GreedyTroll hates this rule and decides he isn't going to honor it. GreedyTroll decides instead to make some more accounts on the forum. So now he has 10 different forum accounts all requesting stuff in the giveaway section. I've participated in many forums and I've seen this happen a lot on all of them.

Well, the same problem could come up in the sell forums with people trying to artificially raise bids using alt accounts. This is something the mods/admins have to keep an eye on, I think there is already a rule about alternate accounts anyway? So that problem isn't really different from any of the other Ventari's forums. Also, if a Troll really wanted to do this, since the "Pre-searing" is based on post count (I think, anyway), why couldn't they just "spam" the forums to get past it? It wouldn't be that much extra effort, I wouldn't think. And if they are going through the trouble to make a new login why not just take the small extra step?

I do agree that that is a problem, and not one easily solved!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Also "pre-searing cadets" have not contributed much to the community yet so should they be allowed the privilege of requesting stuff? I don't know. There are of course 2 ways to look at it. Perhaps it's best to leave it up to the giver whether or not he gives to a pre-searing cadet.

That's an interesting point. Although it's difficult to measure "contributing" by post count numbers. I don't feel I've necesssarily contributed all that much yet, but because of being active in other places like the Buy/Sell forums and here as well my post count has risen. I think you are right that it is probably best to leave it up to the OP on whether he wants to give to pre-searings or not... or if he will only give to pre-searings!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

When your son turns 16 and gets his driver's license do you buy him an expensive porsche or do you get him a dependable used honda?

*I* don't even have a porsche... heh. Interesting point though. But generally I'm of the opinion higher end items don't sway things in your favor *that* much. You still have to learn effective use of skills and tactics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

We need to help the new players, but not by throwing gold their way. Help them by offering to go with them on quests. Explain skill interactions to them. Show them wiki. Answer their innocent "how do I get armor?" questions without humiliating them.

This is a really great point. One idea that spawned from this is giving players *collector drops*, then offering to escort them to a collector to get a nice weapon (since collector weapons are fairly decent, mostly it's gathering the drops and then finding/getting to the collector that can be difficult).

This seems almost better than giving away max gold items! It's a time commitment, of course, which isn't as "easy" as just handing someone something. Of course, you could always collect it yourself (since they aren't automatically customized the way armor is), and then give it away.

Sorry, that's a bit beyond the scope I guess of the "giveaway", but it is an interesting idea of helping out new players. I bet someone has tried this... how successful was it, I wonder?