Curse

Mercury Angel · Feb 06, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Elemental Order of Operations:

(Shorthand)
Inherent Weapon Attribute -> Conflagration + Greater Conflagration -> Judge's Insight -> Kindle Arrows -> Conjure/Order Attribute Check -> Winter -> On impact effects check {Thunderclap, Spinal Shivers, Mark of Rodgort, Winnowing}

Detailed Explanation-
1.)The very first check to determine weapon elemental damage is the inherent weapon mod.
2.)If that weapon deals Physical damage, it becomes Fire when Greater Conflagration/Conflagration is up.
3.)Then, if Judge's Insight is in effect, the damage becomes Holy.
4.)If Kindle Arrows is being used with a bow, then the damage becomes Fire.
5.)Here is where Conjure Element and Order of Pain/Vampire enchantments check for your weapon's attribute to see if they take effect or not.
6.)Winter converts all elemental damage to Cold damage here. [If the damage was otherwise converted to non-elemental, through Judge's Insight, it is not affected.]
7.) This is where the rest of the checks come in. Thunderclap, Spinal Shivers, Mark of Rodgort, Winnowing, and defensive effects (AL, Mantra of Frost/Flame/Etc. and so on)

Arrow Animation Order of Operations:

(Shorthand)
Normal Arrow->Preparation->(Greater) Conflagration\|/
Preparation<-Normal Arrow<------------------------|

Detailed Explanation-
1.) All arrows fired have the default appearance, except for arrows under the effect of Kindle Arrows, Ignite Arrows, Apply Poison, and Greater Conflagration.
2.) If you have a preparation listed above, the animation is changed to it now.
3.) If you're using a Physical or Fire attribute weapon, and Greater Conflagration is up, the animation is changed to its now.
4.) If you have Judge's Insight on, converting the element to Holy, the animation effects revert to what it would have been without Greater Conflagration, OR if you applied the preparation BEFORE the spirit came up, or from out of range of the spirit.
Edit:
5.)Distracting Shot arrow animation overrides all preparations and (Greater) Conflagration.

Arrow Animation Screenshots:
Apply Poison-

Kindle Arrows-

Ignite Arrows-

(Greater) Conflagration-

Distracting Shot-

*As an entirely unrelated note, Read the Winds and Favourable Winds seem to work together now.

Credits:
chris_nin00, Savio, JR-, and myself

---
*Updated to include Conflagration spirit introduced in Factions.

Funda · Feb 08, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

I'm sorry, but for whatever reason, I don't get it. What exactly is this supposed to be outlaying? Keep in mind that it is 2:45 AM here and it's likely that the whole concept of this thread is whizzing above my head atm.

Could you explain in laman's terms what process your trying to lay out? What I take of it is: It's just showing the different animations of the arrow's path when you have different preparations activated. Am I right in that this is all there is to the second part of the post?

However, the first part eludes me... and the shorthand parts...

lol, all in all, you can say that I am thoroughly confused, and I have a ranger in the desert atm, so its not that im totally oblivious to *some* of the lingo -- I just can't seem to gather the grand connection of what youre trying to tell us.

Savio · Feb 08, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

The first part deals with the different skills and how one replaces the other. If you had both Kindle Arrows and Judge's Insight, for example, Fiery would override the Judge's Holy. You still get the armor penetration from JI though. The second part has to deal with what animation your arrow shows; kind of weird under different circumstances. Just useful info if you ever plan to stack different skills on a Ranger.

Pan Sola · Feb 11, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I've heard reports that if Winter is laid down prior to Greater Conflagration, then physical damage only becomes fire, not cold.

Perhaps order of casting for other skills also affects the order of operations too, specifically with respect to Judge's Insight vs Kindle Arrows. I can understand why JI would always traump Greater Conflag.

Also, you listed Conjusre after Greater Conflag. Does this imply that if I wield a regular long sword within range of Greater Conflagration, then Conjure Flame would trigger when I attack, even though the long sword is not a fire weapon?

Finally, what is the significence of Order happening before Winter? Isn't Order on-impact? and since one worries about physical damage (damage type, not weapon attribute) while the other converts from one element to another element, what is implied by Order being separated from other on-impact effects and placed before Winter?

Mercury Angel · Feb 11, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan Sola

I've heard reports that if Winter is laid down prior to Greater Conflagration, then physical damage only becomes fire, not cold.

It does not trigger Mark of Rodgort in the Winter->Conflag order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan Sola

Perhaps order of casting for other skills also affects the order of operations too, specifically with respect to Judge's Insight vs Kindle Arrows. I can understand why JI would always traump Greater Conflag.

We ran both. JI->Kindle, and Kindle->JI. Kindle overrides everything except for Winter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan Sola

Also, you listed Conjusre after Greater Conflag. Does this imply that if I wield a regular long sword within range of Greater Conflagration, then Conjure Flame would trigger when I attack, even though the long sword is not a fire weapon?

Yes, a physical weapon converted by Greater Conflag into fire will trigger Conjure Flame, whether you cast it before or after the spirit was set down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan Sola

Finally, what is the significence of Order happening before Winter? Isn't Order on-impact? and since one worries about physical damage (damage type, not weapon attribute) while the other converts from one element to another element, what is implied by Order being separated from other on-impact effects and placed before Winter?

Was wondering if someone would catch on to that. No, it was just personal preference. I could either couple it on-impact with the hexes, or stick it with Conjure. Either way, it makes no difference at this time. Perhaps in the future when 300 new skills for the base professions are released, something will cause it to matter.

Mercury Angel · Feb 11, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Latest addition to the series:
Expertise, Energizing Wind, Quickening Zepyhr, Glyphs, Primal Echoes, and Your Energy

Shorthand Version -
Formula with Energizing Wind and Expertise -
Energizing Wind Reduction -> Expertise Reduction

Formula with Quickening Zepyhr and Expertise -
Expertise Reduction -> Quickening Zepyhr increase

Formula with Energizing Wind placed first, then Quickening Zepyhr*, and Expertise -
Energizing Wind Reduction -> Expertise Reduction -> Quickening Zepyhr increase

Formula with Quickening Zepyhr placed first, then Energizing Wind*, and Expertise
Quickening Zepyhr Increase -> Energizing Wind reduction -> Expertise Reduction

Thusly -

EW = Energizing Wind
QZ = Quickening Zephyr

25 cost skill Concussion Shot with 10 Expertise (40% reduction)
15 alone
6 with EW
8 with EW->QZ
20 with QZ
11 with QZ->EW

25 cost spell Panic
33 with QZ
10 cost with EW
18 with QZ->EW
13 with EW->QZ

*A clarification on the order of effects: It's not actually which is placed down first, but which first takes effect on you. If you placed Energizing Wind down, moved a little away, placed Quickening Zepyhr down, moved all the way away outside of Energizing Wind's AoE, but not Quickening Zepyhr's, and then went back into Energizing Wind's AoE, you would use the Quickening Zepyhr placed first formula.
However, I felt that clarified was a bit long and confusing, and since the AoE is so large on spirits, I didn't think it would be a huge deal for regular play.

A fun fact, for skills that are affected by Expertise, costs from 10-15 are better used with Quickening Zephyr placed before Energizing Wind, while skills that cost 25 are better with that reversed.

===

A partially-related note:

Elemental Attunement skills (elite and non-elite) return energy based on the BASE cost, not the adjusted cost. Regardless of whether Energizing Wind or Quickening Zepyhr are up, they always return consistent amounts. This includes Expertise on Lightning Touch and Shock as well.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
===

Glyphs

GLE = Glyph of Lesser Energy

25 cost spell Deep Freeze
33 with QZ
10 with EW
10 with GLE
18 with QZ->GLE
0 with EW->GLE
13 with GLE->QZ
10 with GLE->EW

10 with QZ -> GLE -> EW
3 with QZ -> EW -> GLE
13 with GLE -> QZ -> EW
13 with GLE -> EW -> QZ
0 with EW -> QZ -> GLE
0 with EW -> GLE -> QZ

GE = Glyph of Energy

25 cost spell Deep Freeze
10 with EW
33 with QZ
5 with GE
13 with QZ->GE
0 with EW->GE
7 with GE->QZ
5 with GE->EW

13 with QZ -> GE -> EW
0 with QZ -> EW -> GE
7 with GE -> QZ -> EW
7 with GE -> EW -> QZ
0 with EW -> QZ -> GE
0 with EW -> GE -> QZ

With a single Spirit and a Glyph:
Whichever is set down first takes effect first. This holds true for both.
However, through in a 2 spirits and a glyph, and things start getting weird [the bolded entries are the oddities]:

10 with QZ -> GLE -> EW
Equation: QZ->GLE->EW

3 with QZ -> EW -> GLE
Equation: QZ->EW->GLE

13 with GLE -> QZ -> EW
Equation: GLE->EW->QZ

13 with GLE -> EW -> QZ
Equation: GLE->EW->QZ

0 with EW -> QZ -> GLE
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities = 0 [Energizing Wind is definitely first though.]

0 with EW -> GLE -> QZ
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities = 0 [Energizing Wind is definitely first though]

13 with QZ -> GE -> EW
EW->QZ ... >>>BUGGED!<<< [reported]*

0 with QZ -> EW -> GE
Equation: QZ->EW->GE

7 with GE -> QZ -> EW
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities yield the same answer. [Glyph of Energy is definitely first though]

7 with GE -> EW -> QZ
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities yield the same answer. [Glyph of Energy is definitely first though]

0 with EW -> QZ -> GE
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities = 0 [Energizing Wind is definitely first though]

0 with EW -> GE -> QZ
Equation: Unknown. Both possibilities = 0 [Energizing Wind is definitely first though]

For the most part, they act in the order they're set. There're a few instances where it makes it impossible to make a universal order out of it, though.

===
Primal Echoes

10 expertise, 40% reduction

10 cost Signet ring
6 alone [/w primal]
8 with Primal->QZ
6 with QZ -> Primal
8 with Primal -> QZ -> EW
8 with Primal -> EW -> QZ

If Quickening Zepyhr is placed before Primal Echoes, the formula is:
Expertise Reduction

If Primal Echoes is placed before Quickening Zepyhr, the formula is:
Expertise Reduction -> Quickening Zepyhr

---

*The Energizing Wind bug is that costs greater than 10 but less than 15 are not affected by its reduction.

Ashleigh McMahon · Feb 11, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I love the pictures... I take notice of these differences.

Thanks!

Sereng Amaranth · Feb 11, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Nice experimentation.

So per the equations, trappers should drop QZ then EW to benefit for Flame, Barbed and Spiked trap, but would get a lesser benefit for Dust, correct?

Mercury Angel · Feb 11, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth

Nice experimentation.

So per the equations, trappers should drop QZ then EW to benefit for Flame, Barbed and Spiked trap, but would get a lesser benefit for Dust, correct?

10 expertise, QZ->EW, you'd pay:

6 for everything except Dust Trap, and 11 for Dust Trap

for EW->QZ, you'd pay:

8 for everything

So as long as you're using at least 2 other traps besides Dust Trap, you're better off, because you'd save at least 1 energy, not to mention they recharge slightly faster anyway, so you'd use them with a little more frequency.

Pan Sola · Feb 12, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

*A clarification on the order of effects: It's not actually which is placed down first, but which first takes effect on you. If you placed Energizing Wind down, moved a little away, placed Quickening Zepyhr down, moved all the way away outside of Energizing Wind's AoE, but not Quickening Zepyhr's, and then went back into Energizing Wind's AoE, you would use the Quickening Zepyhr placed first formula.

Ahh, this is one of those things that just makes perfect sense once I hear it, but can't come up with on my own d-: