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Old Dec 10, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27   #41
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It really is a pity that pets still aren't very good (in my opinion) even with all of those statistics... haha. But still, I admire you for your research.
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Old Dec 10, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59   #42
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BTW, Epinephrine, when testing pet damage, make sure the pet owner's level is 20, otherwise SonOfRah's damage equation is a little off.

Specifically, the diminishing return from Beast Mastery (and other weapon attributes) doesn't always start after rank 12. The threshold is actually Level/2+2 (or something that is extremely close to that).

So at level 19, investing in any attribute for 12 rank already gives you diminishing returns (19/2+2 = 11.5 < 12), messing up the Baseline vs AL equality.

You probably do all your testing with lv20 characters anyways, but want to point that out just in case.
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Old Dec 10, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17   #43
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I can confirm that we did our damage testing with level 20 characters, so no worries Pan Sola.
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Old Dec 10, 2005, 04:57 AM // 04:57   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
I can confirm that we did our damage testing with level 20 characters, so no worries Pan Sola.
Coolness....


OOooo, and, blah, that conclusion was really derived from weapon mastery and automatically assumed to be true for Beastmastery, based on the fact that SonOfRah's damage article reported beastmastery also has a diminishing return after 12.

But it just occured to me that, in the case of pets, the threshold could be dependent on the PET LEVEL instead (or as well).

So, can I make a request for you to test? Testing at 0 BM against someone with 0 AL (and using balanced stance to eliminate critical hit bonus) will always be fine when threshold is concerned (which I just recall is how you guys test, so my earlier warning is really moot anyways). At each pet level, after figuring out pet's base damage, can you also collect damage data with BM from (Pet Level/2) to (Pet Level/2 +4)? Because base damage is already known, you can keep the victim at 0 AL instead of trying to get matching armor to cancel out the BM baseline.

My hunch is, like actual weapons, the diminishing return threshold should only depending on character level. However I'll always have this nagging uncertainty that pet level might also affect the threshold.

Sincere gratitude if you guys can collect those extra data while doing testing in the future.
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Old Dec 11, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04   #45
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gr8 guide overall. one thing on brutal mauling tho. it seems that the attack is simply a animation, but if your getting attacked by one the dmg rate does not decrease. ie dmg RoF does not go down making this pet equal.

looks like you put a lot of work into this guide. proberly should make people pay for it
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Old Dec 11, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peewee
gr8 guide overall. one thing on brutal mauling tho. it seems that the attack is simply a animation, but if your getting attacked by one the dmg rate does not decrease. ie dmg RoF does not go down making this pet equal.

looks like you put a lot of work into this guide. proberly should make people pay for it
No, it does reduce the damage. The damage is the same for a brutal mauling attack, but the rate of damage does drop. We tested bears at level 5 and level 20, and in both cases the damage per hit matched that of other creatures, and the rate of attack was an average of 1 hit per 2.6 seconds or so, resulting in a decrease in damage of about 18% (i.e., a bear does 82% of the damage of a simlilarly evolved wolf, for example).

Falconer: You are right, the change of pet attacks to shouts does seem to make it easier to maintain the rate of attack, so the reduction of effectiveness shouldn't tend to happen with the skills. So in fact, you can probably simply multiply the DPS for the attack normally by 1.33 to get the CoH DPS. As for usefulness of pets in PvP - I think pet-based teams can work, but agree that it isn't the easiest thing. I'm hoping to get our guild to run a pet based GvG build (not IWAY) soon, and revive animal can free up some comfort animal slots, making a focal pet rezzer essentially.

Last edited by Epinephrine; Dec 11, 2005 at 11:39 PM // 23:39..
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 01:49 AM // 01:49   #47
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Wow. Terrific reading!
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33   #48
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Crap, I wish I would have read this BEFORE I almost leveled up a new bear pet. Why would Arenanet have one pet that is obviously inferior to the others? And why would the playing feild be level when they said there would be differences? I wonder if this shall be changed in the future?

How hard is it to get that fully evolved to level 15 wolf? Is it a "luck" thing or is there a trick to it?
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41   #49
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Well, you leave from Copperhammer Mines to The Granite Citadel. On your way, you get into the first boss area. Arriving "in the zone", you can see two elder wolves available for charming:



In the next screenshot, you will notice that the wolf on the left has been charmed by your opponents:



Finally, a closeup of the wolf that is still available for charming:



So all you got to do is select a green "Elder Wolf" and click "Charm Animal". Good luck.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00   #50
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Thank you very much

Now I have to figure out whether I should go with a wolf (second favorite) or just deal with the handicapped bear (first favorite) hoping that we will get an update or a correction in chapter 2.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38   #51
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It really depends on what you plan on using your pet for. The bear is only handicapped if you need it to be dealing damage. If you're using it in PvE for a damage sponge, since pets don't get DP, then the bear is a perfectly fine pet to have.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:38 PM // 15:38   #52
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Are the wolves always Elder? No "Dire" or "Hearty"?
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
It really depends on what you plan on using your pet for. The bear is only handicapped if you need it to be dealing damage. If you're using it in PvE for a damage sponge, since pets don't get DP, then the bear is a perfectly fine pet to have.
On a related note, does the size of the pet matter?

Ie, is a larger pet like a bear more likely to be targetted by AI than a Warthog, or does it not make any difference?
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42   #54
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Those particular wolves, as seen in the screenshots, are. Unlike the spider, you don't have a chance of a different evolution spawning. If you tame a lower level wolf, though, you'll be able to train it for whatever evolution you want.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
Those particular wolves, as seen in the screenshots, are. Unlike the spider, you don't have a chance of a different evolution spawning. If you tame a lower level wolf, though, you'll be able to train it for whatever evolution you want.
Thanks, I was wondering if they always spawned that way, or if, like the spider, you could find different evolutions....

Great guide, BTW.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
It really depends on what you plan on using your pet for. The bear is only handicapped if you need it to be dealing damage. If you're using it in PvE for a damage sponge, since pets don't get DP, then the bear is a perfectly fine pet to have.
That is certainly true ... However ... even if you use a pet as damage sponge (i.e. hearty), the fact remains that a bear deals damage (regardless of the quantity) approx. 20% slower than its exact evolution counterparts from the other species. Personally, I find that unacceptable.

On a related note, I like dire pets lately. It seems to me that pets barely get attacked, and if they do get hammered, their chance of survival without healing is limited anyway.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10   #57
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I too like Dire pets. If you are providing them with healing there is little difference between the health levels, as it's seldom spike-like enough damage to matter, and if you aren't then 60 more health is unlikely to save it. The extra damage is noticable.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43   #58
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I'm going to put it out there that I also like Dire pets the best, though this hasn't always been the case. All but one of my beast-based solo builds unquestionably work better with a Hearty pet than a Dire pet, as the added health buffer of the Hearty gives you more maneuverability. You have a larger window of time to kite and position yourself before you have to be standing still and spamming Comfort Animal.

However, since I've been able to play in a team environment, I've switched to a pet with more offense and haven't looked back. In team scenarios Epinephrine really hit the nail on the head. If you're healing your pet, the healing is either enough or the damage is going to drop your pet regardless of which evolution it is. There doesn't seem to be any middle of the road. Thus, the added damage from an offensive pet is always welcome.
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26   #59
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Wow. What can I say but thanks and I'm absolutely impressed. I appreciate the degree of detail you both went through. You guys ROCK!
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33   #60
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How does the pet gain exp? Does he gain exp as mcuh as he supposed to (for example a pet of lvl 17 gains 100xp after i kill a level 17 monster) or does it gain exp same as me?

Will a pet get exp from a quest reward? Because I noticed when i first played the game through as a ranger that my pet always had same level as me, and I've did quite a few quests and missions.
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