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View Poll Results: Agree?
Yes I do. 28 29.79%
No - I'm stoopid. (I know its not spelled like that) 66 70.21%
Voters: 94. This poll is closed

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Old Jul 10, 2011, 03:21 PM // 15:21   #1
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: May 2011
Guild: PING
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Default Make Paragons Competant In PvP

Hello good people of Guru,

I'm sick of not being able to kill stuff with paragons. They are literaly the only class that is not playable in competative games. Mabey the skills should be modified, mabey they should be changed all together. All in all,
I don't care as long as they can do what their SUPPOSED to do; That being boosting team members in a way that actually helps .

If you agree with me then please + the poll. If you think im insane and paras are awesome in pvp like they should be then - it.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57   #2
Lion's Arch Merchant
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What kind of pvp?

In RA they're ok. In 8 man areas they were originally a problem, so they got nerfed hard.

I've not seen any actual suggestions that would be workable in regards to paras, though I've not read every post. They are either too good, or lame, hard to find a middle ground.

If Anet aren't careful they could just turn derv-wars into para-wars.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09   #3
Desert Nomad
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Biased polls aren't good polls, and this poll is clearly biased.

Really, I think paragons are fine in PvP. They can do damage, they can spread conditions, and while their support options are crap (for the most part), making them viable would likely lead to overpowerment. My only suggestions for buffing paragons in PvP is to make their condition spreading ability a little bit better, so that they could compete with the ranger for condition spreading jobs.

Really, I would far rather anet spend their time with paragons in the PvE setting. Most support skills are complete crap, and for a support class... well that just doesnt make sense. Nerf the imbagon to hell (aka, nerf SY - its an OP skill even when not on imbagons), and buff the crappy leadership, command, and motivation support skills for PvE. That is what anet should be focusing on in regards to paragon (and in general, should be pretty high on the priority list).
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 04:47 PM // 16:47   #4
Krytan Explorer
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I refuse to vote in biased poll.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 05:03 PM // 17:03   #5
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jul 2008
Guild: [DVDF]
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I have to disagree with you Lanier, I believe Paragons are mostly fine in PvE, but need some serious help in PvP. I do agree Save Yourselves should be nerfed to encourage other Paragon options though.

As a basic PvE rundown:
The regular skills for both Command and Leadership are mostly fine and both very useful in PvE, they just need a few tweaks (for example, Bladeturn Refrain should top out at 30% evade not 20% evade, and Angellic Protection's Damage Threshold should be lower) to make them truly worthwhile support. Admittedly, the Elites are a different case however, and all Command Elites and half of the Leadership Elites need total reworks to make them attractive compared to other (non-elite) options in the game (for example Angellic Bond currently does the same thing as Divine Intervention but isn't as good at it and is an elite, Defensive Anthem does the same thing as Aegis but ends on attack skills, is harder to extend, and is elite, which unremovability fails to make up for overall).

PvE Spear would be fine if it had access to a multi-strike and a less conditional AoE attack. One or two spear skills are basically totally redundant with some of the other options, so these could be reworked.

PvE Motivation is the only truly near-useless one, and needs a complete rework

The PvP rundown is far more ugly:
Command and Leadership fair far less favourably here (and not just the Elites, tho at least one or two of the elites do gain some value here), with some skills doing totally different things to their PvE equivalents or having drawbacks that make them useless. Stand Your Ground? Nice in PvE if not for SY, but in PvP...ends whenever you do anything. Pointless.
Bladeturn refrain? +30~ish armor vs. Slashing? Totally pointless, soon as the enemy Warriors/Assassins/Dervishes see you are using it they'll switch to a Piercing or Elemental Sword/Axe/Dagger/Scythe and it's a wasted skill slot.
Find Their Weakness? Worthless here (tho the PvE one is good), an expensive and conditional way to make deep wound and nothing else. Better to just use Vicious Attack/Merciless Spear. Needs to do something else to make it worthwhile.
Burning Shield? Inferior to it's Warrior and Dervish cousin's equivalents due to having one less effect them then (only 2 as opposed to their 3), notably missing the knockdown to assist the following kite (which is something the Paragon could desperately do with in PvP, as it lacks self-defense skills which is disastrous being as squishy as a caster due to Agg. Refrain, which you have to have to retain effectiveness even with a support build)

Spear would mostly be fine in PvP if it wasn't for a few things:
1 - Some redundant skills.
2 - One or two skills require too much bar commitment to be effective. Needs more compression.
3 - Warriors, Dervishes and some would argue Assassins too can use Spears offensively more effectively than Paragons. Paragon's aren't bad with them but aren't as good as those with them. This should be addressed the same way it was for Scythes and the Dervish before the update.

PvP Motivation, is, as it's PvE cousin, mostly entirely useless outside full-Paragon teams (were it's all too easy to make it overpowered), due to far too long cooldowns and much too conditional skills. It's Condition Removal elites are good, but that's it. Needs a complete rework.

In both formats, the unliked Paragon skills also need help and are once again, inferior in every which way to similiar options on other classes.

Wonder if we ever will see the Paragon update that was promised to us a while back though? I'm dubious.

EDIT: Typo.

Last edited by KotCR; Jul 10, 2011 at 06:10 PM // 18:10..
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02   #6
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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I know personally in PVE would rather have foes 10x harder, if they revert all the Paragon skills to there original format. As for PvP all the skills would have to be split again.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 06:37 PM // 18:37   #7
Jungle Guide
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I hope this entire thread has been one big troll. Paragons suck. End of. They're dull and limited in PvE and useless in PvP. If you need paragon skills it's mostly only one or two shouts, which people can use through second prof.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 07:00 PM // 19:00   #8
Desert Nomad
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Location: In a van, down by the river.
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Also, RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO your poll. Paragons used to be good in 8v8, but they're the sort of class that has to be OP to be worth considering, or they're not worth seeing any play time whatsoever.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 08:35 PM // 20:35   #9
Wilds Pathfinder
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Guild: Free Wind
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Broken concept; Free ranged damage & party support. Either they're OP or useless.

That been said, they actually do see play in GvG right now, sparingly. Please do not change them as it will probably do more harm then good.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 08:49 PM // 20:49   #10
The Hotshot
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We just had this thread like a month ago.

Interested in GvG? Want to watch some high-level PvP? Check out some streams and recordings!
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07   #11
Forge Runner
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Paragons are just a terrible concept for a profession.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04   #12
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Guild: Clan Dethryche [dth]
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"Make paragons better" is not a constructive suggestion.

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