Curse

GogoHatchet · Mar 14, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

and guess what...

ponder on this for a sec....

this is gonna get u goen....

if its not fixed then....

they r gonna roll out the time! WOW... imagine that...

I agree...

It is truely amazing how it won't be ready until it's ready...facinating.

chrisbenoitfan123 · Mar 14, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

there only gonna roll back the trades right?!?! cuase i created a mesmer and he just got like lvl 11 in like the hour it was happening so i hope hes not gonna go back to like lvl 4

Jarek Longbow · Mar 14, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

hahha, half assed way ?? its the perfect solution and it would work, and REAL server ? my lineage server is perfectly real, unless i been tripping all this long time while i have been updating/comparing etc the sql databases 0.o

perfectly real in the sense that it's a shard of course and not a primary server correct? Take UO for example, lots of "shards" but nothing can compare to the REAL actual "live" servers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

and because there is many makes my knowledge somehow invalid to you ? you havnt said ONE word about what it actually is YOU have done.

and shipped games ? dont make me laugh, im a relativly newbie and these things and i can see that you know almost nothing compared to my *little but enough to get by*

*sigh* fair enough...

I've worked on roughly 6 feature films including Fantastic Four, Elektra and 2 full CG movies as a Technical Director. I worked with Electronic Arts on development for multiple Xbox 360 games including R&D work on the capability/infastructure of the Xbox 360 from core performance through to networking support via Live and now currently work over at Sony Online Entertainment. So... still think I'm pulling technical mumbo jumbo from my ass? I don't like playing the "experience" card but you asked for it mate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

you still havnt given me one valid reason as to why anet couldnt have done this instead of rollback the whole thing, rollback is the easy and quick way out, and should only be used if the databases is literally corrupted and/or the logs are, or logs are missing all together.

I've given you multiple reasons that are proven through in and through out from an industry standpoint. As I have said to you previously, if you're such a hot-shot with you "know enough to get my by" knowledge then I'd love to see how you fare actually working on a core server/servers. Your claim to knowledge is childs play compared to the amount of data and volume that Anet and many other shops deal with on a daily basis mate.

Again I will post the following reasons:

databases store counts of items, players and information like that such as transactions etc, not the EXACT detail of everything. Use this approach to rollback and you're bound to have errors. Been there, done that, got a t-shirt.

these logs aren't your typical ASCII notepad file size, we're talking MASSIVE amounts of data being logged everytime a server syncs and in the case of GW that is A LOT of text and data that needs to be browsed and pruned through.

as stated before, Anet isn't a large company and with such a HUGE volume of accounts, players, transactions, items and other bits this is a SERIOUS undertaking for a small team. Just look at how long it's taking to do a rollback of a few hours, you can't afford to make a mistake twice.

items are assigned unique id's in guildwars entirely, hence why there is no such thing as duping. Whereas in Diablo or Diablo 2 all items were classed by category and could be pruned with or searched based on a general database ID, your DB in GW skyrockets and for an admin to have to say "ok, i need items from time X to time Y, then I need to make sure the items match ID wise, then I have to make sure this was a trader transaction" is more work than what you actually think.

there's tons more and I could go on for days and days, but I'm just wasting my breath on someone who thinks that running their own little personal shard even remotely classifies as a core server.

-j

NEOgeo · Mar 14, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbenoitfan123

there only gonna roll back the trades right?!?! cuase i created a mesmer and he just got like lvl 11 in like the hour it was happening so i hope hes not gonna go back to like lvl 4

everything will be rolled back, so he will be at whatever state he was at around 9pm GMT :'[

NEOgeo · Mar 14, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarek Longbow

perfectly real in the sense that it's a shard of course and not a primary server correct? Take UO for example, lots of "shards" but nothing can compare to the REAL actual "live" servers.

*sigh* fair enough...

I've worked on roughly 6 feature films including Fantastic Four, Elektra and 2 full CG movies as a Technical Director. I worked with Electronic Arts on development for multiple Xbox 360 games including R&D work on the capability/infastructure of the Xbox 360 from core performance through to networking support via Live and now currently work over at Sony Online Entertainment. So... still think I'm pulling technical mumbo jumbo from my ass? I don't like playing the "experience" card but you asked for it mate.

I've given you multiple reasons that are proven through in and through out from an industry standpoint. As I have said to you previously, if you're such a hot-shot with you "know enough to get my by" knowledge then I'd love to see how you fare actually working on a core server/servers. Your claim to knowledge is childs play compared to the amount of data and volume that Anet and many other shops deal with on a daily basis mate.

Again I will post the following reasons:

databases store counts of items, players and information like that such as transactions etc, not the EXACT detail of everything. Use this approach to rollback and you're bound to have errors. Been there, done that, got a t-shirt.

these logs aren't your typical ASCII notepad file size, we're talking MASSIVE amounts of data being logged everytime a server syncs and in the case of GW that is A LOT of text and data that needs to be browsed and pruned through.

as stated before, Anet isn't a large company and with such a HUGE volume of accounts, players, transactions, items and other bits this is a SERIOUS undertaking for a small team. Just look at how long it's taking to do a rollback of a few hours, you can't afford to make a mistake twice.

items are assigned unique id's in guildwars entirely, hence why there is no such thing as duping. Whereas in Diablo or Diablo 2 all items were classed by category and could be pruned with or searched based on a general database ID, your DB in GW skyrockets and for an admin to have to say "ok, i need items from time X to time Y, then I need to make sure the items match ID wise, then I have to make sure this was a trader transaction" is more work than what you actually think.

there's tons more and I could go on for days and days, but I'm just wasting my breath on someone who thinks that running their own little personal shard even remotely classifies as a core server.

-j

all your points, every one, is about how much time or work it would take, wich was my whole point to start with, they are being lazy with it, sure have no gw for a day or 2, but do it right and fair, its already been down half a day with them doing it the relativly easy way, and as for your experience, you didnt say ONE pc MMORPG, not one, compare that to my 1, and i think i beat u there , jesus u dug that hole huh, and i completly appreciate that the size of the databses involved in a lineage server are tiny compared to guildwars, and a complete database comparison and update couldonly take 30mins at times, it doesnt mean that many of the same principals dont apply.

and on a lighter note, man those are some cheesy ass bad movies there u susposidly worked on

max gladius · Mar 14, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

JAREK IS STANDING ON THE TOP ROPE.... whats it gonna be now....

oh... i ran a LORD server once (if anyone remembers what that is) and i ROCKED... NEOgeo, ur my hero...

NEOgeo · Mar 14, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

JAREK IS STANDING ON THE TOP ROPE.... whats it gonna be now....

i think probably more of the same, jarek falls off the rope flat onto his balls, with lines about how lineage 2 is irrelavant, and keep pointing to that , while ignoring my actuall argument and making up his own, i say its hard work but they should do it, and his argument is basically its too much hard work, thats not argument or even a debate, thats just half agreeing with me but ignoring the real issue, anet broke it, they should fix it properly, regardless of how small they are or how much a pain in the ass it would be.

Jarek Longbow · Mar 14, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

all your points, every one, is about how much time or work it would take, wich was my whole point to start with, they are being lazy with it, sure have no gw for a day or 2, but do it right and fair, its already been down half a day with them doing it the relativly easy way, and as for your experience, you didnt say ONE pc MMORPG, not one, compare that to my 1, and i think i beat u there , jesus u dug that hole huh, and i completly appreciate that the size of the databses involved in a lineage server are tiny compared to guildwars, and a complete database comparison and update couldonly take 30mins at times, it doesnt mean that many of the same principals dont apply.

and on a lighter note, man those are some cheesy ass bad movies there u susposidly worked on

the downtime of a day or 2 does not sit well with any general public at all. period. As for my MMO knowledge... well lets see.... way way back I had my own little Ultima Online deal going... but that's not really "experience" and seeing as I am working on a next generation MMO currently I think that kinda puts me at a +1 and you still at 0. I'm actually generating the content, writing the code and working with it, you're just runnin a freebie shard and takin credit for what others built for you. Game. Set. Match.

Yes, it does mean the same principals don't apply actually. time is money, the more time your game goes down, the more likelihood you are to lose buyers. Downtime before a huge expansion release is about the WORST thing that can happen aside from losing the entire servers. Your methods lack experience, knowledge and thought as what applies to a small scale application can hardly be predicated to a large scale application with just a few "slight" modifications.

Again, your inexperience of matters gets the better of you. Until you have something to bring to the table professionally, you're really speaking out of context here.

Movies may have been shit overall but I'm quite happy with the results of the work and considering that I got a couple more hitting the box office soon, it's still more work under my belt

Any other words from the "uber knowledgable MMO admin"?

-j

the afterthought, Anet is doing it right and by the book just like any other MMO developer would. Don't you have 10 users you need to be monitoring on your Lineage2 shard, or is that all automated by code formulas as well?

max gladius · Mar 14, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Yep, i see how in ur first posting u r just recomending them do it the slow way... nothing more.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

well, i did get such things, i found a godamn GOLDY half moon farming hydras, req8 15^50 10/10 , and also a +5 armour staff head AND wrapping wich i added to a colectors staff to make a very effective *defensive wicked staff of defense 20%/20%*, and also about 30K gold and 10k materials

so i AM pissed that they are just ROLLING IT BACK, and not just reversing all trades via merchants during that time, but the reason they are not doing that is that in the TOS there is something about them not allowed to delete items (wich they have already broken numerouse times tho), so they should break it again, as aferall this is THEIR fault and noone elses, and u cant blame ppl for buying all that stuff, i just noticed it 5mins before i got disconected and bought 88shards and nearly 40 sup absorbs.

sure those items should be removed and use refunded, but a rollback of all game activity is lazy and evil, and not needed, at all.

sure it might take them then twice the time to get the servers back up and running, but it will be the fairest thing for everyone.

yassy_visera · Mar 14, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

HAHAHAHAHA they still haven't fixed it!

LowOiL · Mar 14, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarek Longbow

You obviously have no clue as to what lies within the TOS or you didn't pay attention to the entirity of the context.

The fact is I don't understand what your purpose of bitching is, even when you have failed to submit a logical fix for the problem. Do you have any idea how hard it is to rollback certain aspects of a game and how LONG it takes to prune all that unneeded data out, not to mention the risk of even MORE screwups? Your whole idea of reversing just trader transactions is just plain dumb, it would take a server admin a solid day just to prune that information out, then filter for items that were sold for 250g between Time X and Time Y, then do another filter to make sure that someone who bought some blue or other regular colour dye for 250g didn't get reverted. All said and done, you wouldn't have a game to play for about 3-4 days instead of 3-4 hours

Come work on these types of games and see just how much there REALLY is to constantly do and the effort involved in even rolling back just a few hours. I'd be a little more appreciative of the effort that Anet's putting into this fix considering the fac that you are playing on their servers for free... but I guess that's just not good enough for you right?

My name's Jarek and I work on MMO's.

-j

Great rant there and for most part of it I agree... That is until you get to the part (and you were not the first to point it out) about "PLAYING THIER SERVERS FOR FREE"..

That is a lie... Either you are lying or they are lying... When I purchased my game for around 50 plus tax, on the very front cover is these words " FREE ONLINE PLAY"... But I had to purchase that game to get that, so in essence it would only be free if they did not claim it was free on the front of their boxes.

You bought the game, because of the content of it promises, a game that you could play online for free...

We are NOT playing their servers for free, we paid for it as advertised. Period

Adaria · Mar 14, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Think, this has to be fixed GLOBALLY, which could include any number of servers in four different regions and then some. Of course it is going to take time to fix.

DeathDealer · Mar 14, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Well..I have to say that NEOgeo is turning to defense and hostility on the NEO -vs- Jarek fight which means one thing to me.....Jarek knows more and NEOgeo is angry with this and has nothing left to turn to except hostility. I would honestly say that Jarek has the better points and they are clear as a sunny day...I don't understand the points you are trying to make NEO....I am not saying either is better, just Jarek has more viable and understandable points whereas your statements are confusing the crap out of me. I would also like to add that there is no easy quick solution to this from a company the size of Anets and the rollback is the smartest solution to the problem experienced earlier. Picking through databases and such would take a whole lot longer. Rolling back the clock is the only viable solution to the problem at hand.

Jarek Longbow · Mar 14, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowOiL

Great rant there and for most part of it I agree... That is until you get to the part (and you were not the first to point it out) about "PLAYING THIER SERVERS FOR FREE"..

That is a lie... Either you are lying or they are lying... When I purchased my game for around 50 plus tax, on the very front cover is these words " FREE ONLINE PLAY"... But I had to purchase that game to get that, so in essence it would only be free if they did not claim it was free on the front of their boxes.

You bought the game, because of the content of it promises, a game that you could play online for free...

We are NOT playing their servers for free, we paid for it as advertised. Period

By free I meant that it's a non subscription based game where you don't have to pay a monthly fee. I stand corrected on my generalized statement of "free" so just wanted to clarify that there. Yes, we all paid for the game and 'bought' access to it for the 50 bux, however we're not fueling the company per month with subscription funds so that's what I meant by playing for free.

-j

max gladius · Mar 14, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

paying for game is correct, for my time for price now, ive paid just under $.02, yes that is 2 cents per hour ive played the game over the last 9 months...

DeathDealer · Mar 14, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

paying for game is correct, for my time for price now, ive paid just under $.02, yes that is 2 cents per hour ive played the game over the last 9 months...

pretty good deal if you ask me.

LowOiL · Mar 14, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarek Longbow

By free I meant that it's a non subscription based game where you don't have to pay a monthly fee. I stand corrected on my generalized statement of "free" so just wanted to clarify that there. Yes, we all paid for the game and 'bought' access to it for the 50 bux, however we're not fueling the company per month with subscription funds so that's what I meant by playing for free.

-j

Understand.. and you have good points Sir

NEOgeo · Mar 14, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowOiL

Sorry Neo, but you are sinking lower with each post and not helping your cause in the process. Jarek has proven his point to me that he does not a thing of two about what he talks about.

Resorting to taking the low road is a sure sign of loss in a debate... IMHO...

i just speak my mind m8, and i dont really care whether most ppl agree with me or not, i still think it could and should have been done, sure he made some very good and valid points, but i still think hes full of BS about all his movies/games friends at anet etc etc etc

and if you read closer you will see him sinking that low quite a bit back before more, slagging off my hard work with my lineage2 server from the moment i mentioned it and it continued to do so.

Granted im quite stuboarn (as im sure you have noticed, lol) , but let it be known i have taken his points onboard, and considered the majority of them before even making my first post, the time and hasstle it takes Vs the final outcome.

i still beleive that pissing off all the legit players that lost that game time, that were doing quests / missions / farmin / pvp / and all kinds of other stuff, could do as much dmg to anets numbers of chapter2 sales as some more down time than we are currently having would have.

anyway, whether lost or won, it isnt a fight, and has no definate conclusion in my eyes other than the fact that it is being rolled back anyway and theres nothing we can do about that BUT debate it

i thank you jarek for at least keeping me occupied with a good discussion during this downtime, even if i do think alot of your comments about yourself are either lies or at least exagurated.

Jarek Longbow · Mar 14, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

ooo, getting touchy now, not good for a "profesional", and making up your own qutoes that i never said, infact i said the opposite, were there did i say "uber knowledgable MMO admin" ?!?!? i said i iknow little and just enough to get by

hahaha, kid you're such a joke

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

and as for you saying your working on a next gen MMO, i never heard such rubbish in all my life, you would have throw that right in my face in the first post were u rant about your experience i nthese matter, were u posted nothing about a pc MMO, but as soon as i call you on it, suddenly your making this whole next gen MMO , oh dear we got a lier here *ALERT THE BULLSHIT POLICE !!!!!

*

Yep, you're right... it MUST be BS... hey, is there an admin that can clarify that I am posting from a SONY workstation? Put this kids words to shame

Having never worked in the industry you are probably not educated enough to know what an actual NDA is. You don't HAVE to believe that I am working on a next gen MMO if you don't want to, it changes nothing in my life but further down the road it'll make you look even more of an idiot

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

and again you come back to profesionalism, but at every point you have turned to having more and more *snipes* at my experience only to follow up with how much better you are

got credits that say otherwise?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

as for you, go back to you fantasy land were your still living in your moms basement playing guildwars 24/7 while lieing on the internet about the hollymood movies you make, the xbox360 games you make, the next gen mmo's you create, and all the ppl at Anet you know

yeah, cuz you know working for SOE and all that leaves me living in my moms basement playing guild wars 24/7... that's a pretty fair assumption to make and considering that you're beat on every single aspect of the argument, you now have to turn to personal slander to try and make yourself feel like you have a point and actually know something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOgeo

seriously this is getting quite quite hilariouse now, if you done even half the jobs u said, you would be sitting here arguing with me about some trivial matter on a guildwars forums now would you ?

why, working on such titles puts me above other people so I can't post on a guild wars forum? That's a pretty sad and pathetic argument and point right there on its own.

Now to put my money where my mouth is.

Some of my production work: http://www.creaturetd.net/demo_reel/reel_web_2005.mov

8 months old, enough to prove my point though that your argument of me "bullshitting" now just got squashed into nothingness.

http://www.creaturetd.net if you'd like to see anything more and have your words thrown back in your face

A word of warning for future reference... don't ever assume someone's bullshitting until you have actual proof at hand... you now officially look like a complete retard

-j

For the record, seeing as you're not smart enough to figure it out on your own, yes we do have "uncredited" work in film which means that R&D work, pre production and late contract negotiations mean that you get your hands on the work but no credit on the films. I'm sure you can figure the rest out.

Jarek Longbow · Mar 14, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

servers are back up.

be prepared to download a fair amount of files for revert.

-j