Curse

Ratsneve · Mar 05, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Over a month ago I played GW long and hard for a couple weeks until giving up. The X1900XTX worked great with no problems noted. I then played Gothic 3 and in pretty short order started getting graphic aberrations in the form of tears, flickering, and different sized triangular patches that would move around depending on how the point of camera view and angle was changed. Some parts of the game had none of these aberrations while other parts could get very bad and disrupt the game play even. The GPU temp stayed under 100 degrees C and upgrading the video driver alone did nothing.

I finished the game and started playing GW over again with a new character. Immediately I noticed the same flickering and triangular patches and graphic troubles I had in Gothic 3! It seems to build up over time getting worse. I found that restarting the game worked for a while and Alt-Tab to the Desktop and back to the game would clear things up for awhile too...but "for a while" is only a few minutes at best and then some aberrations would start to appear again.

Today I upgraded the BIOS, chipset, LAN, sound, and video drivers/files and it made no difference. I then downgraded the video drivers from version 7.2 back to 6.9 which is the graphic driver I used when I first played GW. No change at all. I have also set many graphic options in the game to lower settings or off to see what effect they had and nothing changed. I'm now thinking that Gothic 3 stressed out the card (which I know should not have been possible) to the point that the hardware is failing.

What do you think? If the card is at fault I think I will upgrade through my dealer to a nVidia 8800? What do you think?

Thank you.

Dex · Mar 05, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

It sounds like your video card might be dying. Overheating is also a possibility. It's not a compatibility issue with the card, as I'm using a x1900xtx as well and I don't have any problems...with any games. Can you confirm that the cooler for the card is working properly and is clear of dust? Also, what's the ambient temperature inside your case. If your GPU is getting over 80C that's not a good thing. Just as a test, you might also try running with your side panel off your case with some kind of fan blowing at the video card.

knobbler · Mar 05, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

First post!

I have an X1900XTX and its gets seriously hot also, but AFAIK they all run hot, around 70-80c under full load. Mine got up to 100c playing Company of Heroes but I cleaned out the inside of my case with an air duster and cleaned off all the fans and now it sits around 83c full load but my case, despite being a coolermaster (wavemaster) isn't very cool.

Try cleaning out your case and all the fans to lower the overall ambient temp of the case and it should lower the graphics cards temp like it did on mine.

Also check out the fan on the card and any case fans to see if there all working correctly and at there best rpm. My X1900XTX has two fan settings and one of them wouldn't cool off a burning match.

Darkveil · Mar 05, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

From the symptoms you describe, it seem like an over-heating issue to me.

If the fan on the cooler is working (I assume you use the stock cooler shipped with the card), and you have some sort of decent case ventilation (not counting the PSU fans) I can only give you the advice to remove the cooler and and clean off all thermal compound from both GPU/memory/heatsink.
Then either:
1. Use a high quality thermal compoud (for example Arctic silver) which you use with the stock cooler.
or
2. Throw the stock cooler in the garbage

and buy a custom cooler (like Zalman VF-700, zalman VF-900 - check for compatibility) and use some of that above mentioned thermal compound with it.

I always go with the second alternative as using a custom cooler will often make the whole system less noisy as well as having a higher thermal efficiency.
Besides, Ive seen many stock coolers with too much thermal compound or grease not even covering half the GPU which leads to bad performance as well as a high noise levels.

If it sounds tricky, ask someone who knows what their doing for help before you try any of this.

/ Jinx

Ratsneve · Mar 07, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Interesting problem...

Today I started playing the game again after making no changes since my last play. It downloaded new files and I noticed that the version changed from 21.153 to 21.206 BUT in game I had lost all antialiasing and the graphics looked pretty terrible beyond that. The ground cover definition was destroyed. Technical support suggested I do an image update of all my files thinking that something was corrupted by the automatic file update. I did this length process and indeed it fixed this particular problem.

In addition it appears that this corrected update so far has fixed my graphic aberrations too! The card fan seems to be running faster and the temp is cooler and I haven't seen one graphic spike/glitch so far. THAT's all pretty amazing if it is really true.

It never occurred to me that the very similar graphic troubles I have had in both Gothic 3 and Guild Wars might be caused by the game programming not contending properly with certain graphic cards like the X1900XTX. The frame rate isn't even dropping below 60 when I try to catch it.

Ratsneve · Mar 07, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Okay... Further discovery seems to be that there is a "problem" between GW software maybe, the Catalyst Control Center, and the card in setting up proper fan temp regulation. I got things back on track a second time by rebooting the computer and running the game before running CCC to check on the GPU temperature. I'm not sure who/what is really at fault causing this except the X1900XTX hardware seems to be working just fine. Temperatures stay well under < 80C and no graphic glitches/aberrations after hours of gameplay.

At least I think I have a work around should fan control get lost again.

Empedocles · Mar 07, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratsneve

Okay... Further discovery seems to be that there is a "problem" between GW software maybe, the Catalyst Control Center, and the card in setting up proper fan temp regulation. I got things back on track a second time by rebooting the computer and running the game before running CCC to check on the GPU temperature. I'm not sure who/what is really at fault causing this except the X1900XTX hardware seems to be working just fine. Temperatures stay well under < 80C and no graphic glitches/aberrations after hours of gameplay.

At least I think I have a work around should fan control get lost again.

Get rid of the CCC, and use Ati Tray tools instead.

Ratsneve · Mar 07, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

Get rid of the CCC, and use Ati Tray tools instead.

Explain some more please? But thank you for the suggestion. Do I uninstall CCC or just not run it? Or is it always running in background if installed?

Empedocles · Mar 07, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratsneve

Explain some more please? But thank you for the suggestion. Do I uninstall CCC or just not run it? Or is it always running in background if installed?

Like discussed in this thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124774, do the following:

1) uninstall ccc+drivers
2) re-install 7.2 only drivers
3) Install Ati Tray tools v. 1.2.6.964

Ratsneve · Mar 07, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

Like discussed in this thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124774, do the following:

1) uninstall ccc+drivers
2) re-install 7.2 only drivers
3) Install Ati Tray tools v. 1.2.6.964

Thanks. Although I have had this CCC problem where I jump out of GW to the Desktop with the error message shuting CCC down and all and then returning to the game it may or may not relate to the card overheating problem. On the other hand I suspect the CCC is loosing control somehow of the fan/temp regulation. The game seems to run okay if I reboot and just run GW and do not start CCC--at least sometimes. Since I don't think I need the CCC anyway--not overclocking or anything like that--I like the idea os uninstalling the whole thing and just reinstalling the driver(s) with no CCC. If I don't get graphic aberratiions and the FPS is staying right up at around 60 then everything is fine--I don't need a temp say 70C if it obviously is under 80C and working okay.

Fragorders · Mar 07, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I had used ATI tool tray- and all it did was mess up my computer. When ever I would start GW's and if I needed to minimize for what ever reason, the picture would freeze, but audio would still be there, had to do a hard restart. I uninstalled ATI TT, and reloaded CCC w/ drivers and it's working now. IMO ATITT is not worth it.

Empedocles · Mar 08, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fragorders

I had used ATI tool tray- and all it did was mess up my computer. When ever I would start GW's and if I needed to minimize for what ever reason, the picture would freeze, but audio would still be there, had to do a hard restart. I uninstalled ATI TT, and reloaded CCC w/ drivers and it's working now. IMO ATITT is not worth it.

I can only speak for myself, but I have had absolute no problems with ATT, so you can't generalize

. However, ccc takes up quite some resources and if you are to o'clock gpu even slightly, I prefer A tray tools.

Ratsneve · Mar 08, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

ATI made a big mistake with me. Two phone techs said two different things and when I tried to get a third opinion someone goofed up the transfer and I got a busy signal. One tech was offshore and had a know-it-all attitude that runs me raw. So, tomorrow morning I'm giving up on ATI and trading in the X1900XTX at my dealer for a nVIDIA 8800GTX. This card should be good for at least a year.

When I uninstalled the ATI drivers and CCC last I reinstalled only the drivers per ATI instruction. Maybe because I use XP Media Center Edition--I don't know--the install drivers only failed because I ended up with an unknown device. So I reinstalled everything again and have lived with several hours of good game play today. When the graphic aberrations appear it means the fan speed has been inadequate. I Alt+Tab or Minimize to the Desktop and then back to the game. I repeat this until the graphics are stable once again--the fan is running fast enough to keep the GPU in the 70C range.

One ATI tech said he had heard of the problem before but that they were not tracking enough instances of it to warrant their further investigation. Fine! I solved that problem--though I'll be a little poorer for it by afternoon.

shirosae · Mar 08, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Check the voltages on each of your rails. I've had similar before - it looked exactly like overheating, but wasn't. Then the PSU died, and I realised that my graphics card was fine; the voltage on a rail or two from your PSU was dropping off, lowering the maximum stable temperature across everything.

Worth a check.

...unless you've added some new hardware recently, and your PSU can't quite cope. That wouldn't be my first guess, though, given the behaviour you report.

Chances are that if it is your PSU that's to blame, the same problems will creep back with the new card. I'd be tempted to check it anyway, though.

BTW, re: 'Unknown Device' - was your card a VIVO card? If so, you would also have had to install the WDM capture drivers, in addition to the display drivers. The dial-up section of the driver download page has the three parts (CCC, Display, Capture) available as seperate downloads. Won't help you now, of course, but there might be others in the same situation.

Dex · Mar 08, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratsneve

ATI made a big mistake with me. Two phone techs said two different things and when I tried to get a third opinion someone goofed up the transfer and I got a busy signal. One tech was offshore and had a know-it-all attitude that runs me raw. So, tomorrow morning I'm giving up on ATI and trading in the X1900XTX at my dealer for a nVIDIA 8800GTX. This card should be good for at least a year.

When I uninstalled the ATI drivers and CCC last I reinstalled only the drivers per ATI instruction. Maybe because I use XP Media Center Edition--I don't know--the install drivers only failed because I ended up with an unknown device. So I reinstalled everything again and have lived with several hours of good game play today. When the graphic aberrations appear it means the fan speed has been inadequate. I Alt+Tab or Minimize to the Desktop and then back to the game. I repeat this until the graphics are stable once again--the fan is running fast enough to keep the GPU in the 70C range.

One ATI tech said he had heard of the problem before but that they were not tracking enough instances of it to warrant their further investigation. Fine! I solved that problem--though I'll be a little poorer for it by afternoon.

I've had pretty much that same experience with just about every component manufacturer I've ever dealt with. Most companies have lousy tech support when you're dealing with a problem that actually requires troubleshooting. Most of those "techs" are nothing more than power users with casual hardware knowledge that are looking up issues in a support knowledge base - sometimes the same one that's on their web site. In my experience it's EXTREMELY rare for any company's support people to be helpful with problems that are actually difficult. Then again, if it was a problem I could troubleshoot myself I wouldn't be calling...

Bottom line is that there are so many things that can go wrong most support people aren't capable or willing to spend the time to actually find out where the problem is. It's difficult, because in the case of a video card I'd bet that a very large percentage of their call volume are calls that have nothing to do with the video card or the drivers, but the company has to spend support time trying to help anyway. Computer tech support is a huge money sink for technology companies.

Not defending it, but it's the nature of the industry.

Dex · Mar 08, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratsneve

ATI made a big mistake with me. Two phone techs said two different things and when I tried to get a third opinion someone goofed up the transfer and I got a busy signal. One tech was offshore and had a know-it-all attitude that runs me raw. So, tomorrow morning I'm giving up on ATI and trading in the X1900XTX at my dealer for a nVIDIA 8800GTX. This card should be good for at least a year.

When I uninstalled the ATI drivers and CCC last I reinstalled only the drivers per ATI instruction. Maybe because I use XP Media Center Edition--I don't know--the install drivers only failed because I ended up with an unknown device. So I reinstalled everything again and have lived with several hours of good game play today. When the graphic aberrations appear it means the fan speed has been inadequate. I Alt+Tab or Minimize to the Desktop and then back to the game. I repeat this until the graphics are stable once again--the fan is running fast enough to keep the GPU in the 70C range.

One ATI tech said he had heard of the problem before but that they were not tracking enough instances of it to warrant their further investigation. Fine! I solved that problem--though I'll be a little poorer for it by afternoon.

I've had pretty much that same experience with just about every component manufacturer I've ever dealt with. Most companies have lousy tech support when you're dealing with a problem that actually requires troubleshooting. Most of those "techs" are nothing more than power users with casual hardware knowledge that are looking up issues in a support knowledge base - sometimes the same one that's on their web site. In my experience it's EXTREMELY rare for any company's support people to be helpful with problems that are actually difficult. Then again, if it was a problem I could troubleshoot myself I wouldn't be calling...

Bottom line is that there are so many things that can go wrong most support people aren't capable or willing to spend the time to actually find out where the problem is. It's difficult, because in the case of a video card I'd bet that a very large percentage of their call volume are calls that have nothing to do with the video card or the drivers, but the company has to spend support time trying to help anyway. Computer tech support is a huge money sink for technology companies.

Not defending it, but it's the nature of the industry.

Ratsneve · Mar 09, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dex

Bottom line is that there are so many things that can go wrong most support people aren't capable or willing to spend the time to actually find out where the problem is. It's difficult, because in the case of a video card I'd bet that a very large percentage of their call volume are calls that have nothing to do with the video card or the drivers, but the company has to spend support time trying to help anyway. Computer tech support is a huge money sink for technology companies.

I think I totally agree with your conclusions. My solution in this case was to try the 8800GTX which is a nice upgrade to make in any case. And it fixed the problem. Played for several hours last night with no graphic hiccups at all. The Asus 8800GTX fan is quieter then then the ATI X1900XTX fan and monitoring the temp shows much better stable temperature control. Since the 1900 worked fine on another monitor at a lower resolution but consistently acted up on my Sceptre monitor in 1920 x 1080 (and I thought in some lower resolutions too) I suspect some specific weakness either in that card and/or my monitor. If it is in my monitor then the 8800GTX VGA signal level tolerances differ enough that the problem doesn't arise--don't know and I don't care now. My conclusion--buy an Asus 8800GTX.

This thread is finished now.

Fragorders · Mar 10, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

I can only speak for myself, but I have had absolute no problems with ATT, so you can't generalize

. However, ccc takes up quite some resources and if you are to o'clock gpu even slightly, I prefer A tray tools.

Wasn't generalizing- just telling what happened to my computer. That's like you saying that its a resource hog- that all depends on the PC. One thing I did like about ATT was that it would tell you the cards temp- which can be an asset.

MegaMouse · Mar 11, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Noone else mentions this but a power supply going out can cause problems with your video card also. I had a video card go out while back and didn't think about the power supply til 2 others fried. After I upgraded to a much better power supply my problems went away. Depending on how old your power supply is and if it can handle the added load that may be the problem

Mega Mouse