Curse

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

So then no one who plays any sort of online game can play their games without buying a $600 video card? That's a little farfetched, as, like I said, I'm on a geforce2 mx400, 64mb, which is a card from what, 1995? And I'm running guild wars.

Tachyon · Mar 13, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

You can't go wrong with that Antec 900 case. It's a bloody amazing case for the price, can't be beaten. Then again I'm biased as it's what I have my rig in. Looks like this when powered up and in the dark. Sorry about this crap quality, but it was a mates camera with a dodgy CCD.

Bear in mind that I also have a blue neon Hiper Type-R 580W PSU in here too, so that also adds to the blueness.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Yeah I already knew it lit up, otherwise Id have gone with a generic $60 case. It's beautiful, isn't it? I would never get sick of something like that.

By the way, that looks like it's being held up by a couple of wood blocks. Maybe I haven't done enough research, but is my pc supposed to be up off the ground? and why? Heat?

Tachyon · Mar 13, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

One word of warning though, the fans are pretty noisy on the maximum setting. You get a 3-way selector switch for each of the four fans, I've found that having them all on medium is a nice balance between noise and cooling.

Personally I'm an AMD/Nvidia man myself, but each to their own I guess. That said though, the system you quoted should make you very happy indeed when you see it performing. Although I would most definitely spring for the 2GB option as it seems to be the sweet spot with many of the newer games.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

There will be 2gb. After the specs I put in (x2) meaning I'm buying 2x 1gb ram sticks

Empedocles · Mar 13, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

So, $200 now + $300 later? Still $500. I certainly understand your hesitancy. I'm waiting to build our replacement for the eMachine upstairs until DX10 is released and there are more cards (for more budgets) available.

A $200 range ATI will last at least two years, from then on 300$ more than likely gets you more performance than what G80-series (8x00es) can offer today.

I don't understand brand loyalty when it comes to pcs, though

I had an AMD, obtained Intel c2d, since they offer more bang for the buck where I live, in a similar vein, got ATI now, even though I had Nvidia.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

What I'm failing to understand is... why is it so important to keep up with the directx's? Like you said emp, the x1950 pro should last me 2 years or more, so why would I need to upgrade to keep up with dx10? It's not important at all for gw. Maybe for games that don't exist yet and won't for awhile.

When does dx10 come out anyways?

Dex · Mar 13, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

I don't understand brand loyalty when it comes to pcs, though

I had an AMD, obtained Intel c2d, since they offer more bang for the buck where I live, in a similar vein, got ATI now, even though I had Nvidia.

I'm with you on that. My last 6 CPUs have been AMDs, but if I were in the market for one now it would be a no-brainer: Core 2 Duo. I love the competition that AMD brings to the market, but the Core 2 Duo is simply leaps and bounds better than what AMD has right now. Not only in speed, but also in heat and power dissipation.

I wouldn't buy a GeForce 8800 GTX right now....maybe a 8800 GTS. Maybe. It all depends on your price range. ATI owns the midrange gaming cards at the moment. Obviously, nVidia owns the bleeding edge...and also the budget gaming realm. I have a Radeon x1900xtx in my main rig right now, and it is superior to anything in the nVidia 7900 line. The 7900's have an incomplete SM3.0 implementation and wimpy pixel shader muscle compared to the x19XX line. Not to mention I think my x1900xtx produces prettier pictures than my dual 7900 setup in my other machine. We'll have to see what ATI comes up with in the next 6 months. My next video card could be nVidia....or ATI. Whichever company produces the best product at my price point.

I'm not a brand evangelist either.

Dex · Mar 13, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahl

What I'm failing to understand is... why is it so important to keep up with the directx's? Like you said emp, the x1950 pro should last me 2 years or more, so why would I need to upgrade to keep up with dx10? It's not important at all for gw. Maybe for games that don't exist yet and won't for awhile.

When does dx10 come out anyways?

Technically...it's out. It'll be a while before mainstream games are requiring it, though. Why is it important? Well, new graphical and architectural features tend to be released along with DirectX versions. GPUs are often referred to as "DirectX 8 GPUs" or "DirectX 9 GPUs" depending on what standards they're designed for. There are quite a few DirectX 9 games available right now, and while they'll run on DirectX 8 GPUs, there are oftentimes features that must be disabled because the GPU isn't capable of utilizing them. These are typically things like lighting effects, particle effects, adding additional eye candy in fewer rendering passes, etc., but they can also be invisible features that simply make apps that implement them run faster.

DirectX 9 cards won't be obsolete any time soon. The chicken littles telling you that the DX9 hardware sky is falling are making a bigger deal out of it than it is. By the time we all really need DX10 hardware there will be much better DX10 hardware available for more affordable prices, so I wouldn't let that force your hand on any $600 decisions right now. Personally, I won't spend more than ~$400 on a video card. Anything above that is "bleeding edge bragging rights" money. I just don't think it's a good value.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Well right now it's either $200 on a x1950 pro or $600 on a GF8800. Kind of obvious what the answer is on that one :P

Seems to me the only thing people are concerned about is the memory card, and I've already decided on what I want.

So then.. there is nothing else of any concern here?

dronex · Mar 13, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahl

What I'm failing to understand is... why is it so important to keep up with the directx's? Like you said emp, the x1950 pro should last me 2 years or more, so why would I need to upgrade to keep up with dx10? It's not important at all for gw. Maybe for games that don't exist yet and won't for awhile.

When does dx10 come out anyways?

DX10 is out games are starting to pop already
im pretty sure anet will upgrade the engine, guildwars is evolving so fast it looks awesome and i cant wait to see it in dx10 ;]

Dex · Mar 13, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by dronex

DX10 is out games are starting to pop already
im pretty sure anet will upgrade the engine, guildwars is evolving so fast it looks awesome and i cant wait to see it in dx10 ;]

There won't be any DirectX10-only games for quite some time. There are a few games that are claiming to take advantage of DX10, but it's minimal at this point. Think about what games were like when DirectX9 first came out. Most games were still essentially DX8 games for quite a while after that.

As far as Guild Wars going to DX10....that's not happening until GW2 comes out...and that's not slated until - when? - like 2009, so don't hold your breath. There will be no "engine upgrade" of current GW games to DX10. That simply isn't done. I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but it won't happen. It would be a total engine re-write, which ANet is NOT going to do for free.

dronex · Mar 13, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dex

There won't be any DirectX10-only games for quite some time. There are a few games that are claiming to take advantage of DX10, but it's minimal at this point. Think about what games were like when DirectX9 first came out. Most games were still essentially DX8 games for quite a while after that.

As far as Guild Wars going to DX10....that's not happening until GW2 comes out...and that's not slated until - when? - like 2009, so don't hold your breath. There will be no "engine upgrade" of current GW games to DX10. That simply isn't done. I'm not sure if that's what you meant, but it won't happen. It would be a total engine re-write, which ANet is NOT going to do for free.

im not going to argue with you in this thread, dx is out games are coming, its the future. They did upgrade gw from dx8 to dx9 did they ... and they have upgraded the engine every single chapter release ...

Your build sounds good it will last you a while, good luck.

FlameoutAlchemist · Mar 13, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

I must say I love the specs on the computer, and its definitely overkill for GW. However, you've built yourself years of time without being forced to upgrade, which is great thinking.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts -

You can pack a 650 watt ps in there if you really want to. The ps won't kick out 650 watts unless all the devices need that much power, so you've got latitude there.

The 1950 is a kick-butt card that I wish I could put in my desktop. I play GW on my NX9420 laptop, which has an 1600 258MB card, and I run 2GB system RAM. I can max out the settings and maintain a constant 40 fps in fullscreen.

Bottom line - I wish I could spend the kind of money you can on parts. I did the same thing about six years ago when I was playing FPS games, and it feels great to have those bragging rights. Even now I don't have to upgrade anything to still play todays games.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Well I'm in those years right now where I have a lot of freedom as to what I can spend my money on. I don't care if it's against any rules or anything because it's completely relevant to this convo. I'm 19, and I was smart enough to not storm out of my parents' house when the going got tough. So NOW, I have absolutely no bills to pay. Every cent I earn goes either towards taxes, which everyone has to pay... and my wallet. If I don't spend it, it just piles up.

After the pc comes a new LCD monitor, after that comes a 46" LCD tv for my room (I was going for 55" but I was advised not to as there wasnt enough space between the 2 sides of my room. If you're too close it will destroy your eyes, so we did a measurement and 46" seemed big enough and matched well). After that comes a Leather Loveseat for my room. Followed by a Wii, and hopefully MetPrime3 will be out by then, otherwise I'll wait on it. Once I've got my luxuries then it's all going towards and car and college tuition

Oh, the whole point for this msg was to mention that even if gw upgrades to dx10, who cares? Just because the engine is on dx9 right now doesn't mean I need dx9. I make gw run on 8. Look at the beginning of this thread, a fellow shows you how to make your gw run on an older directx so that the people with bad cards/ram/anything will have an option to run the game a bunch smoother. My gw runs relatively smooth now in a lot of areas. I'm sure trashy to most of you but still way better than I've been used to.

By the way, is a x1950 too powerful for a 500w ps? I know a lot of places overkill on ps just to be on the safe side and everything, but I'm on a 450w right on on my junker and my GF5500 blew up. I dunno if it even had anything to do with the ps, or maybe it was defective cause I had just bought it a few weeks beforehand. I don't know.

Dex · Mar 13, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dronex

im not going to argue with you in this thread, dx is out games are coming, its the future. They did upgrade gw from dx8 to dx9 did they ... and they have upgraded the engine every single chapter release ...

Your build sounds good it will last you a while, good luck.

Not arguing. I think you're missing my point.

Yes, DX10 is out. Can you name some games that take significant advantage of it? Can you name any big titles coming up in the next few months that are going to make it significantly desirable to spend that extra "bleeding edge" $200 on a DX10 video card right now? Seriously, name them and tell us why you need a DX10 card for them. Of course, DX10 is the future...it's just that it's 4 months to a year in the future before most people are going to really care about it. It's going to take that long before a large portion of the market owns DX10 hardware.

Yes, they added a couple of DX9 post-processing effects to Guild Wars. So what? There's a huge difference between that and re-building the engine to utilize DX10 - it's more than a minor addition to the engine. What they've done to the GW engine thus far are minor enhancements at most...not full-on DX upgrades.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Oh oh oh... I get it now. When I picked up my gf5500 I noticed a lot of glowiness and extra mist and fog that I never saw before. That must be because I was running on a dx9 video card as opposed to this dx8 vid card. So it's just the post process stuff that changes huh?

I dunno what else they could really add to gw graphics wise with a dx10 addon

Mushroom · Mar 13, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empedocles

I'd say current mobos have good enough integrated soundsystem (perhaps not ASUS p5 that has driver problems) that investing in X-Fi is hard to justify unless you have very good 5.1 system for eax - for music you should be better off getting some other card. That 100$ saved serves better in getting a more powerful gpu.

One of the places where most people do serious overkill is in the sound card. For the vast majority of people the on-board is just fine.

And remember, a sound system is only as good as the speakers it is hooked up to. If you have anything less then a 5.1 in the $150+ price range, you will not her the difference between an X-Fi, SB Live, or on-board. And even then, there are a lot of people who simply can't tell the difference.

About the only time I recommend people to use a card instead of the on-board is if they are doing "pro level" work, like sound or video editing. I use an older Audigy in my system, because I have it hooked up to my mixer board to a high quality Shure microphone (not the standard "wand" mic). And with on-board cards, there is a noticeable static "hiss".

And remember, if you are going to use Vista, EAX is not available at this time. Creative claims they are working on a patch to get the old EAX-Direct3D sound to work on the new OpenAL sound system, but there is no firm time yet for when this may be released.

So if you want to use Vista, there is no benefit at this time to having an EAX sound card. Personally, I do not care about EAX. I do not use it, and only got the Audigy because of the lower "sound floor" for when I do recording. And until last week (when Creative finally released stable Vista drivers), I was useing my on-board and had no problems with it's quality.

Dahl · Mar 13, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I'm definately not going to be using vista. Sticking with xp-pro.

You're right, I probably won't notice right away. In fact it's likely that I won't be getting the sound card for awhile because as you can see, I didn't include speakers in there. I'm using $50 walmart speakers right now lol. I use a headset more than I do speakers though.

Regardless, the sound card comes last, and I may not get it for many months after I have all the other parts. I've got my priorities pretty straightened out.

Mushroom · Mar 13, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dex

DirectX 9 cards won't be obsolete any time soon. The chicken littles telling you that the DX9 hardware sky is falling are making a bigger deal out of it than it is. By the time we all really need DX10 hardware there will be much better DX10 hardware available for more affordable prices, so I wouldn't let that force your hand on any $600 decisions right now. Personally, I won't spend more than ~$400 on a video card. Anything above that is "bleeding edge bragging rights" money. I just don't think it's a good value.

I agree with most of what you are saying. Having been in this industry for over 20 years, I have seen video cards come and go. And I always thought it was foolish to invest large dollars into either newly emerging technology, or in technology that is on it's way out.

In my store, I am reccomending that people not go above the range of the X1300 512 MB (or equivelent) video card. These are a great card for the money, play just about anything you want at the moment, and are cheap enough where you will not think to hard about replacing it with a DirectX 10 card when they hit "mainstream".

Sure the X1950 is great, but it is also "old technology". And unless you have bottomless pockets, it is rather foolish to spend a large amount of money for video card(s) that are going to be totally eclipsed within the next 6 months.

Plus people should be getting ready for the next round of "Video Card Price Wars". The ATI X2900 (with the R600) video card is about to be released (2-3 weeks), which is going to start driving down proces of DirectX 10 video cards. And most reviews of pre-release cards with the R600 core basically have it "spanking" NVidia. So expect NVidia to release a newer generation card to compete, and we will rapidly see improving performance and falling prices.

In fact, I predict that within 6 months, a DirectX 10 card will cost within $50 of the price of an X1950 today. And the X1950 will more then likely be roughly half the cost of the card today. That has been the general trend for the last 20 years, and I don't see it changing any time soon.