Curse

EternalTempest · Apr 06, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Thoery

-dsound (agree with others, uses old DirectSound engine we have been using)

-sndasio

I *think* this would use ASIO audio format (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_stream_input_output) This is a format favored by muscians. I did an experiment using winamp to play music via DirectSong and ASIO... Asio sounds *much* better. Problem is Creative Labs ASIO driver (for multiple cards... can be very buggy). In fact I found (can't find link) a 3rd party ASIO generic driver.. that ran better.

-sndwinmm

No idea.... based on some research ... look like low level / simple access to windows multimedia... simple play back.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Apr 06, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

OK, I did some switch changes...

Anyone care to tell me why using the -newaudio gives me 10-20 more FPS than before?

My feeling at the moment is that some systems got bogged down with the old sound API in direct sound especially those people with integrated audio on their motherboards like myself. My FPS used to be routinely 10-25 in Outposts and it now is 30-45.

So, it looks like the -newaudio switch is active...and enables FMOD?

EternalTempest · Apr 06, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

that switch is hidden...

It's no longer showing where the other switches are at in the exe... I will have to take a look in to this more, you have me very curious now.

Gaile Gray · Apr 07, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Hello,

I wanted to pass along a message from our sound expert, Jim:

Audio Update Technical Notes:

Guild Wars now uses the FMOD sound system to mix all audio in default mode (software mode). This change was made primary for performance and compatibility reasons, especially considering that DirectSound is now a depreciated system in Windows Vista with reduced functionality. Most players should have no issues and will experience a performance boost because of this change. When hardware acceleration is selected, DirectSound is used as before (no functional change).

Some users may experience compatibility issues with the new audio system. If so, we recommend trying a different driver model first. Low-latency ASIO drivers can be selected by using –sndasio at the command-line. These drivers are not as widespread, but may offer good results for anyone that happens to have them installed. Higher-latency but more compatible Windows Multimedia output can be selected by using –sndwinmm at the command-line. Windows Multimedia is slightly less responsive than DirectSound or ASIO drivers, but is more likely to work when other drivers have issues.

In the event that users experience issues with the new default sound mixer and alternative drivers do not solve the problem, the old DirectSound software mixer is available for compatibility. Use –dsound at the command-line to enable it.

Command-line Options Summary:
-sndasio : attempts to use an ASIO driver in software mode
-sndwinmm: attempts to use the Windows Multimedia audio driver in software mode
-dsound : forces use of old DirectSound software mixer.

Please note that these three command-line options are mutually exclusive.

Hope that is helpful. We are tracking these threads, so if issues continue, please let us know in this thread.

EF2NYD · Apr 07, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

No sound related problems in Vista here, but it would be nice to have hardware acceleration again.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Apr 07, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Good info, thanks, Gaile.

Ok, so it appears that -newaudio is a non-switch, so my using it must not be doing anything.

Now, my Direct Sound/EAX is still checked, so I'm wondering if that is accurately portraying my actual settings or if I am actually using software mode since it appears to be the new default.

TyrianFury · Apr 07, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Hi there

I have nothing but problems since the audio update. My frame rate in game has been reduced from 60 fps down to about 12. Everything was fine before the Aril 5th update and even with the modifications to the command line suggested above my game still suffers badly. I have tried all three, several sound drivers, updated graphics and motherboard drivers and still can not get the game to speed up unless I knock all my graphics settings down. I have played gw on max setting with high frame rates for ages in both windows xp and more recently vista 64bit.

Is there going to be a fix arena net becasue everything was fine before the update and 12 fps is not great.

My system is

Windows Vista Business Edition 64-bit
AMD 64 x2 4200
1GB RAM DDR PC 3200
Nvidia Gerforce 7600 gt 256 MB with latest forceware drivers
Asus AN8 nforece 4SLI Motherboard
Realtek AC 97 onboard audio

GreatLich · Apr 07, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

TyrianFury, please edit your post to include specifications for your system. This will aid in troubleshooting.

DutchGun · Apr 07, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TyrianFury

Hi there

I have nothing but problems since the audio update. My frame rate in game has been reduced from 60 fps down to about 12. Everything was fine before the Aril 5th update and even with the modifications to the command line suggested above my game still suffers badly. I have tried all three, several sound drivers, updated graphics and motherboard drivers and still can not get the game to speed up unless I knock all my graphics settings down. I have played gw on max setting with high frame rates for ages in both windows xp and more recently vista 64bit.

Is there going to be a fix arena net becasue everything was fine before the update and 12 fps is not great.

Try disabling sound completely with -nosound or -mute (I think -mute still processes the audio but does not output it, so you'd still see lipsyncing). If you still get poor framerate, then it's not the sound system.

Also, try disabling anti-aliasing if you haven't yet tried this (both in GW and in the driver settings). I've heard some reports that this may be causing issues.

Edit: Ok, I actually see in another thread that you've actually tried disabling anti-aliasing and it did improve the frame rate. With that being the case, I'd try disabling sound like I mentioned, and then do A/B comparisons with anti-aliasing on and off to see if it's still affected. If the frame rate it still being affected, then it's likely some sort of graphics bug introduced in the last update, and nothing to do with the sound.

Let us know if you make any headway with this. Sucks having something like this go wrong, especially when nothing on your system has changed.

DutchGun · Apr 07, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Good info, thanks, Gaile.

Ok, so it appears that -newaudio is a non-switch, so my using it must not be doing anything.

Now, my Direct Sound/EAX is still checked, so I'm wondering if that is accurately portraying my actual settings or if I am actually using software mode since it appears to be the new default.

From the way I read the description, it sounds like if you check hardware, than it uses DirectSound (and optionally EAX if that's checked). It's only in software mode (hardware unchecked) that it switches over to the new FMOD sound system.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Apr 07, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchGun

From the way I read the description, it sounds like if you check hardware, than it uses DirectSound (and optionally EAX if that's checked). It's only in software mode (hardware unchecked) that it switches over to the new FMOD sound system.

I was tripped up by the words "default mode". When I logged in after the update, I expected to be using the new default audio system.

Maybe I don't understand it properly, but I always thought that hardware acceleration was superior to software. That is, it was the benefit of having your CPU do less of the work by tasking your hardware device, or so I understood.

And, FMOD supposedly supports EAX, so, why is EAX dependent solely on DirectSound being enabled?

EF2NYD · Apr 07, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Software is default because it's supposed to be the most compatible (only a few sound chips support EAX), and to be on the safe side, most developers default to the lowest common denominator. As for FMOD EAX, their reasoning seems to be to make it more compatible with Vista.

Jarhok Belouve · Apr 07, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Thanks Gaile for the sound help, but I have tried alot of that and it hasnt improved my framerate. Im getting 13, where as normally I get 40 to 60. If I reduce AA to 2x from 4 it vastly improves FPS but I know my comp can handle it at 4x as I have been playing it with that on XP for aaggggeeess and on Vista since I got it. Until now. The FPS is unplayable! All I want to do is play Gwars!

It seems alot of people with onboard sound and 7600GT's are having problems.
I have been playing this game for 22 months and clocked up nearly 700 hours. I don't want to have to give up now!

Amd Athlon 64 X2 3800+
1GB ram
160GB SATA HDD
Asus Nvidia Geforce 7600GT 256mb ram
Realtek High Definition Audio Codec
Windows Vista Home Premium (32-bit) w/ latest updates.
Thanks all

*edit* I am also noticing that the loading screens load, go to black screen, loading screen flashes up again and then it fades to the game world.

TyrianFury · Apr 07, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchGun

Try disabling sound completely with -nosound or -mute (I think -mute still processes the audio but does not output it, so you'd still see lipsyncing). If you still get poor framerate, then it's not the sound system.

Hi again, disabled sound with -nosoud and still my frame rate is 10-20 fps even when not in a town. Yeah if I knock ant-aliasing off all together it helps but as I said in the other thread I have played the game with 4X anti-aliasing for ages with no problems.

Edit: I have diabled my sound drivers all together and still don't have any luck, I really can not see this being graphics related because numerous other games with higher hardware requirments are running fine with ani-antialiasing turned on.

I started a thread when this problem started at: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0139498&page=2 so take at look but it appears only a handfull of people with similar hardware configurations have this issue.

Teelana Singh · Apr 07, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I do know it affects more then the systems posted. I am having the same problem. I use to be around 70+ FPS now I am down to 20-30 FPS. These are my specs

AMD Dual Core 3800
2 Gigs Ram
Nvidia 7800 GT
Soundblaster Audigy
Vista Home Premium with all the updates

A friend of mine has all the same specs except he has Realtek for sound and an Nvidia 7900 GT and he's having the same problems as well.

Hopefully a fix will come soon

TyrianFury · Apr 07, 2007, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Well I have run out of options, I have returned my pc to several restore points, re-installed GW 3 times, new and old drivers, even installed a new sound card which I borrowed (Sound Blaster Augidy 2) and still no luck.

I have disabled Vista aero desktop and tried all the command line codes to alter the sound mixer.

From what I have tried I can only see that the recent GW update has broken compatibility with windows vista as it was fine before. Everyone else with this issue seem to have nvidia cards and vista. AA cant be used without a massive decrease in preformance.

I know vista is not a supported OS but wasnt the update meant to make the game more compatible because of vista's audio architecture? What do buyers of new PCs do now since 95% of now ship with Vista.

Please arena net can you take a look at this.

aeroclown · Apr 08, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

As I have said in another thread, vista users may not find a good fix. Currently Guildwars supports Windows XP and its variants, which is to say to the exclusion of Direct X 10. It is quite possible that the audio engine revisions interact differently and on different levels with Direct X 10.

Please bare in mind as well that the majority of hardware available for new and existing machines that have upgraded to or came with vista is still only DX 9 compliant. This means that DX 10 must support these devices in a legacy mode which may place some higher level functions that this new engine update requires into an unsupported realm for those devices. It is also quite possible that the software engine revision is incompatible with the Direct X 10 api, making it completely out of the reach of any type of support even legacy modes for DX 9 compatible devices.

As a last note in regards to the mention of oem shipping vista. Number one I saw no where in any update that this update had anything to do with vista or its audio architecture. It was to provide better performance and support on SUPPORTED operating systems and not the later. So where would you come away with the idea that this idea was to allow for better support of vista. Number 2 vista is a new release and anyone who knows anything about computers and software in general will tell you to wait on upgrades to new platforms. New releases often have problems with older hardware and even shipping hardware. The platform can be tested on a limited range of hardware configurations before release leaving room for a large gap in support and bug resolution. Its buyer beware, you installed vista or had it installed for you and now you want support for a game that falls into the realm of Legacy support for the new platform you have. Vista isn't just a rehash of patches and hacks, its got api changes, getting a game designed for Windows XP to work on it is a challenge and in most cases will NOT be a target for existing software that supports the previous platforms it was intended for. I would say look for vista support in GWEN.

Forjo · Apr 08, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hello,

I wanted to pass along a message from our sound expert, Jim:

Audio Update Technical Notes:

Guild Wars now uses the FMOD sound system to mix all audio in default mode (software mode). This change was made primary for performance and compatibility reasons, especially considering that DirectSound is now a depreciated system in Windows Vista with reduced functionality. Most players should have no issues and will experience a performance boost because of this change. When hardware acceleration is selected, DirectSound is used as before (no functional change).

Some users may experience compatibility issues with the new audio system. If so, we recommend trying a different driver model first. Low-latency ASIO drivers can be selected by using –sndasio at the command-line. These drivers are not as widespread, but may offer good results for anyone that happens to have them installed. Higher-latency but more compatible Windows Multimedia output can be selected by using –sndwinmm at the command-line. Windows Multimedia is slightly less responsive than DirectSound or ASIO drivers, but is more likely to work when other drivers have issues.

In the event that users experience issues with the new default sound mixer and alternative drivers do not solve the problem, the old DirectSound software mixer is available for compatibility. Use –dsound at the command-line to enable it.

Command-line Options Summary:
-sndasio : attempts to use an ASIO driver in software mode
-sndwinmm: attempts to use the Windows Multimedia audio driver in software mode
-dsound : forces use of old DirectSound software mixer.

Please note that these three command-line options are mutually exclusive.

Hope that is helpful. We are tracking these threads, so if issues continue, please let us know in this thread.

Gaile, thanks for the update.

I was wondering, though. Why are you guys supporting Fmod instead of OpenAL? OpenAL is an open-source standard also and is officially supported for hardware acceleration in Windows Vista.

-Forjo

DutchGun · Apr 09, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TyrianFury

Hi again, disabled sound with -nosoud and still my frame rate is 10-20 fps even when not in a town. Yeah if I knock ant-aliasing off all together it helps but as I said in the other thread I have played the game with 4X anti-aliasing for ages with no problems.

Edit: I have diabled my sound drivers all together and still don't have any luck, I really can not see this being graphics related because numerous other games with higher hardware requirments are running fine with ani-antialiasing turned on.

I started a thread when this problem started at: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0139498&page=2 so take at look but it appears only a handfull of people with similar hardware configurations have this issue.

When you turn off all sound using -nosound, you still have the frame rate issues. To me, that pretty much proves this problem has nothing to do with audio issues at all - that's probably just a red herring.

It sounds to me like this confirms that there was some sort of stealth graphics-related update in GW that is causing these problems. This makes the most sense to me, as there have been a number of other graphics-related issues as well, such as flickering problems. Just because it wasn't in the update notes doesn't mean there wasn't any change to the graphics code. It probably just means there weren't any new *features* or visible changes that the user was supposed to notice. It could very well be that Anet did some optimization work that happened to cause problems on your system, or something like that.

Anyhow, Anet has already confirmed that they're watching these threads. It's very likely that someone is looking into these issues already. For now, I'd turn off anti-aliasing to get the frame rate back up, and wait for an update to come through that fixes this issue.

attackofthecold · Apr 09, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Something i would like to point out is that when ever i loaded a new area it would stall at 100% for about 10 seconds. With the sound update it stopped stalling at 100% but gave the horrible crackle sounding noise. So i switched it back to directsound and now the stall at 100% is back.