Curse

Empress Amarox · Jun 12, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

There's really only a couple things I'm thinking of upgrading...

Video Card

I really don't have any problems with any games with my video card which is a eVGA GeForce 7800 GT 256MB -- I really get no lag, can't even notice FPS drops. But, somehow when using Photoshop, Photoshop acts like it doesn't have enough memory even when I'm only running like Firefox, maybe have a picture open and possibly a text document, and I'll have to close Firefox before it lets me save anything. Honestly, I think that's a bit ridiculous because I have 4GB of ram and there's absolutely no reason it should do that. That leads me to believe that it has to either be a vRAM issue, my Photoshop is messed up, or something on my computer is seriously borked. Of which, I do not know.

So, I figured I got it in 2006, it was top of the line back then, but now, probably couldn't hurt to upgrade. So, I was thinking maybe a GeForce 8800 GT? I've heard very good things about those cards. But, something that kinda confuses me is why some are very expensive, like $280 and some are $85. For example, here's one on TigerDirect: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...361&CatId=1826

I don't see anything wrong with it, but why so cheap? I was expecting at least $200-250 for one, but $85? I could get two and run them in SLI for $170 and I don't imagine I'd need to upgrade again for like, uh.. 5 years? So yeah, point out the stupidity in that and what have you, before I do something stupid.

New question: What's with all the weird ass NVidia card names now days? It seems like everything listed on that page is xxx Core xxx which makes no f'ing sense. I seem to remember cards going like 5800, 6800, 7800, 8800, 9800, with normal, GT, GTX and GTS variants, etc... I must be really behind on times!

Harddrive

Right now I have 2x Western Digital Caviar SE 250GB 7200rpm SATA and 1 I'm not sure what, but it has 120GB memory. So, like... 620 GB of storage right now.

Somehow I've managed to fill that all up with porn (I kid.. Or do I?)

Anywho... I think it's time for more. I was thinking to the tune of 1TB more. 32-bit single core XP can hold 2TB, yeah? I think I'd be fine. I could probably get some cheap crap, but I've learned that it's never a good idea to buy a bad quality harddrive. Those are very important... So, I was thinking a WD Caviar Black 1 TB, SATA 3 Gb/s, 32 MB Cache, 7200 RPM - good, yes?

I dunno that I'd need that good of performance if I'm just storing movies, music and crap on it, but who knows? What do you think? Considering I paid $110 each for 250GB hd's 3 years ago and that's a 1TB one with like 3x the cache, $149 isn't bad at all. Then again, I think those are like $49 now. So, eh. But, I don't like ever buying cheap hd's so, probably going to go with this unless anyone has a better suggestion.

Core

I guess I kinda feel bad about this... I have a MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum motherboard which is still pretty decent, I know it supports a better core than what I have. I have an AMD Athlon 64 3500+ "Venice" 400FSB, it's a single core, was supposedly the best for overclocking at the time... I never bothered to overclock, but dual cores was a waste of money at the time so I just got that one which at $220, I don't guess was a horrible price. Wasn't top of the line, wasn't bottom of the line either, it was okay. Socket 939.

But, now days just about everything utilizes dual core stuff or more. So, maybe time to upgrade and judging by the price I paid and the stuff out now, I could get pretty close to top of the line for what I paid then.

I was thinking an AMD Phenom II X4 Black Edition Quad Core, but if I do that I'm gonna have to get a processor that has AM3 socket, hmm?

But since that's a wee bit pricy for me, maybe I'll get something a bit less cool, what you think? Not a whole lot less cool, I'm thinking a AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition Triple Core, it gets very good reviews. Not bad for $150 compared to the like what, $300 that the X4 is going at?

But, assuming either of those Phenom II's brings me to my next thing which would only happen if I ended up getting that...

Motherboard

Something that supports AS3 socket, probably around $150. Going into this I definitely didn't want to get more RAM, so I wanted it to support the RAM I have. Which would be this: 2x 2GB kits (1GBx2) 184-pin DIMM, DDR PC3200 which I don't think is realistic at all because it's 184-pin DIMM and DDR, where as all the new mobo's that support AM3 require DDR2 and DDR3 from what I can see and overall DDR2 and DDR3 is way better anyways, and RAM really is pretty cheap, considering I paid $170 for my current RAM and can get the same amount but a lot faster for $67, which would be this: 4GB kit (2GBx2), 240-pin DIMM, DDR3 PC3-10600 memory

RAM

Depends on if I get a new mobo which depends if I get that core, but it's going to be the $67 one. No need for Ballistix.

Conclusions

At this point, I really gotta just see what I'm looking at here...

2x 8800 GT = $170
1TB HD = $149
X3 Core = $150
Mobo = $150
RAM = $67
---------------------
$686 total, which is really ideally right what I was looking to be around for a full upgrade. It's actually a lot cheaper than it was to build my computer initially. Or I could just do the video cards and HD which is all I really need for $319, which is very manageable.

So... Opionions, suggestions?

Wrath Of Dragons · Jun 12, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

You will probably wind up needing a new PSU, especially if you plan on running 2 vid cards.
I would recommend going with newer video cards. Price vs Performance right now, 2x ATI 4850 cards (or a 4850x2 = 2 cards on a single board) go for about 250$. The 8800s are old by now, nice cards but there have been a lot of updates since the 8800 series. You might look at the gtx 260 core 216 (the 216 is an updated version of the original. make sure you get the 216 version). A single gtx260 should run anything you throw at it, you shouldne need to upgrade power supply, and you will save a space for an additional card later.

1TB HDD for 90 bucks--Im not sure why you picked that other one, but its pretty pricey.

Next--Photoshop. You should have no issue with it, unless you are doing something far more advanced then I can even begin to guess at. 4gb of ram is more then enough, and the video card shouldnt have that much effect on it.

Empress Amarox · Jun 13, 2009, 04:06 AM // 04:06

I already have a pretty big PSU, 750w or so. So, I should probably be pretty good either way.

But, I don't do ATI, always have been and always will be an NVidia fan. The GTX 260 core 216 looks a bit big though doesn't it? Takes up 2 slots, looks really long, looks heavy... read a couple reviews saying they bent and/or broke due to the weight? So, I dunno that I'd really want something that's going to break in a couple months...

And the thing about it is, is a GTX 260 core 216 really better than two 8800 GT's in SLI? Cause, I mean, someone was posting here and it sounds like they were pretty similar, so much so that two 8800 GT's would wipe the floor with the single GTX 260. Is there truth in that thinking, or were they not using the core 216 or what? I mean, I don't mind getting a GTX 260 if it's better than two 8800 GT's in SLI, but if it isn't then why, y'know?

About the HD... I just linked directly from their website, but yeah newegg is going to be cheaper, it's the same one.

Also, right now I'm running XP Pro x86, if I upgrade my mobo then I will be forced to drop my right now master HD which is an IDE and if I have to do that then I will have to redo my entire OS (of course, I'll still have all my files, but I have to redo everything anyway), so that brings me to the question... Should I go XP Pro x64 (keep in mind from your answer, I will never go Vista, ever)?

I mean, if I did go x64 then I may as well go up to 8GB of RAM, which isn't that bad, just $67 more which is easily manageable.

But, how well supported are x64 systems now? Are there still driver issues or is it completely safe to run an x64 system and only worry about 16-bit installers?

The main reason I was thinking x64 is that it's been awhile since it was introduced (I was interested back then but didn't because the horror that it was), and I do want more RAM, but I suppose I could go for more HD space as well? I know that the HD space on an x86 OS is limited by the MBR assuming the disk uses 512 sectors (2TB max) and x64 OS's will change that to 4000 sectors which allows 16TB, yeah?

So, I don't think I'd need anywhere near 16TB, but if I go ahead and go x64 now, I could go ahead and get another 1 TB HD (why not?), and yeah... Better for the future, right?

GTX 260 core 216 = $174
2x 1TB HD's = $180
X3 Core = $150
Mobo = $150
RAM = $134
-
aaand that's a grand total of $788. $100 difference for double the ram and double the HD space... that's okie I guess.

What do you guys think?

And would it be ridiculous to get another GTX 260 core 216 and run it SLI with the other, or is that just overkill and I may as well wait until it gets a bit outdated to SLI it (or just buy a better card at that point)?

Snograt · Jun 13, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

XP's 64-bit driver support has always been terrible. It may have changed recently, but I doubt it.

The only sane suggestion I can make with your veto on Vista is to run the RC of Windows 7 straight from the get-go and hope to hell they release the retail version before the "trial" version expires a year from now.

SLI'd GTX260-216s isn't a bad idea - but then you need to wrestle with whether this is better than a single 275 or hop up to the next level.

Wrath Of Dragons · Jun 13, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

XP 64 bit I would avoid. Its always seemed to be more of an afterthought then an actual operating system. Driver support was bad in my experience. Skip vista? Definitely. If you want a new OS, get windows 7. (if you want to put 7 on the 2nd harddrive just to test it, microsoft.com has windows 7 release cantidate free untill atleast march next year. Works better then vista ever, even with 2 service packs.) Get the 64 bit. It works great.

I have heard nothing bad about the gtx260. I have a gtx275, and yes it is a large card. Bending pins? Not a chance. Unless you were putting it in backwards or trying to cram it in a AGP slot.

Yes it takes up 2 slots of space....but only 1 PCIe slot. It just pretty much covers up whatever is next to it. a lot of Mobos put [pcie][pci][pcie] order so you dont wind up covering up more then 1 PCIe slot. The card is...~10 inches long. Big. I have no idea what size the 8800s are, but i doubt its that much bigger. Here is a top down shot of my card in the case, so you can get an idea of what it will take up. The mobo is a normal ATX size, the case is just huge so the mobo looks tiny. http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/IMG_0441.jpg

Last but not least.....2 260s would be awesome. far better then 2 8800s

moriz · Jun 13, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

well given all the limitations you've set for yourself, you're better off not upgrading at all.

-XP x64 is dramatically worse than Vista x64. it's always been the oddball OS that very few third party vendors cared to write drivers for. if you want to utilize more than 4GB of RAM, you'll either have to learn to love Vista x64 (or Windows 7 x64 RC, if you're feeling adventurous), or live with having ~3.2GB max, depending on what else you have in your machine. since graphic cards are rapidly moving towards 1GB vRAM, depending on what you buy, you might be stuck with seeing only ~2.8GB.

-the latest Radeons are easily competitive with the latest Geforces. indeed, if it wasn't for the Radeons, the 8800GT would still cost $160, and the GTX280 $500. since size is one of your concerns, let me point out that all of the Radeon HD4800 series (with the exception of the 4850x2 and 4870x2) are 1" shorter than comparable Geforce cards. for instance, the GTX260 core 216 measures 10.5" in length, while the equivalent Radeon, HD4890, measures 9.5". both are dual slot coolers though, since you pretty much need one these days for high performance parts. now, i'm not trying to force you to buy a Radeon, but do know that the option is there, and apparently fit your needs better.

-lastly, if you want to go SLI/Crossfire, do it at the date of purchase. dual card solutions are still very much hit or miss. at best, you'll get a nice boost in performance. at worse, you won't gain any boost at all. not to mention, dual card solutions use a lot more power than an equivalent, single card setup.

given all that, you'll have to change the way you approach this if this upgrade will be worthwhile. you can ignore everything i said about graphic cards, but you'll be seriously screwing yourself if you can't get over using Vista x64 (or jump right to Windows 7 x64).

Tarun · Jun 13, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Moving to Computer Buy/Build.

Empress Amarox · Jun 13, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

How am I better off not upgrading at all?

The upgrades I mentioned in the OP are far better than what I have currently by vast leagues and even doing so leaves room for further changes such as my second proposed idea, which I'm writing off now with opinions on XP Pro x64. Though, the primary upgrade would still leave room to test W7x64 at a later date and decide if I wanted to make the effort to switch over to W7x64 and get some extra upgrades or just stick with XPx86.

As per the first question, I should ask: Is the difference between my setup now's performance and that which it would be given the OP's setup not worth the cost?

I think the difference would be pretty huge. I need to get extra HD space anyways and my video card is in need of upgrading. The rest, I could probably do without. But, wouldn't the mobo & cpu changes be huge? Single core to tripple core, DDR ram to DDR3 ram?

Wrath Of Dragons · Jun 13, 2009, 08:20 AM // 08:20

The new ram/porcessor/mobo will be a very nice upgrade. Why limit yourself on the OS and video card front? The 8800s are old tech. No matter how you look at it, Nvidia has made improvements that simple driver updates cant handle. better physX, better Cuda, better handling of DX10. I honestly can see no benefiet to buying 2 8800s over a newer card, even on the lower end of the new cards.

Dont go with less then 4 gig of ram. I personally think 8 is overkill unless you are doing serious media work. It wastes power and usually results in lower speeds. Im sure you love XP, but that too is old tech. Give up on it. Use it if you have no other OS and cant afford vista/win7. but on a new computer, there is really no reason to use xp if you plan on keeping up with current tech. Dont like vista? Give 7 a shot. Trust me. get over the familiarity and oldness of XP and step out of your comfort zone. give it a chance and you will be impressed.
Its free. Install it on the new HD. You win

moriz · Jun 13, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

it's just that your primary needs are GW and some photoshop, and your current machine will be able to handle both with ease. that, and your apparent unwillingness to move outside of your comfort zone regarding older OS and tech.

btw, if you are still keen on SLI, you'll need to get a nvidia motherboard. AMD boards don't support SLI.

Empress Amarox · Jun 14, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

moriz - I have no clue how you assume all I do is GW and PS... I don't even play GW anymore lol. Assumptions are bad things! xD

I play games much harder on the PC, AoC, Assassin's Creed, Crysis, et cetera. I also do CGI work and the textures I'm editing in PS most of the times are 4096*4096.

About Vista/W7, I've only heard bad things. I always read people having problems with stuff and most of the times it's because they use one of those two OS. Then again, the answer is almost always pathetically stupid like "run as admin." So, maybe I'll give it a fair shake.

In regards to nForce motherboards, I don't see any. Looking at MSI AMD boards, it looks like they have Crossfire instead of SLI (like this one).

And well, one of the reasons I'm opposed to Radeon is stories of poor Crossfire support and certain games I play having issues with Radeon cards. I do however absolutely love Intel from my past experiences, though they're a bit more expensive than the AMD's right now.

But, thinking about it... i7 does have Hyper-threading quad cores which are actually more like octo cores with the way they work. So, I was thinking about it and I may as well just do an entirely new pc, here's the setup:

Quote:

GTX 280 = $234
2x 1TB HD's = $180
i7 Core = $279
Mobo = $197
RAM = $94
=$984
And then the rest of it...
Case + LCS = $359
120mm fan = $9
800W PSU = $149
= $519
Aaand that comes to...
=$1503.

Coulda went cheaper, but I wanted a liquid cooling system.

What do you guys think?

Edit: heh, I forgot about a DVD player/burner...

LG Black Super Multi Blu-ray Disc Burner & HD DVD-ROM Drive SATA Model GGW-H20L = $179

$1682 total

Wrath Of Dragons · Jun 14, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Tragically, we must make assumptions if we have no other info other then the fact you "want to upgrade" and you posted on a guildwars forum.

As far as the choice between ati - nvidia-- you are exactly right. It really comes down to what you are playing and how well it handles which cards.

Last comment here.... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813188046 This motherboard is awesome. Things are spaced well, and it has 3 way SLI capable incase you ever decide to go that route.

Your GTX280 is a good choice...i had no idea the 280s were that cheap. Seems like just yesterday they were 450 bucks.

I just made an I7 system....and i love it. The processor runs very cool (dont need liquid cooling on it unless you need pretty serious OCing) and just powers through anything you throw at it.

Obsy · Jun 14, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Check Micro Center to see if there's a store near you, and if it has Core i7 920s in stock. They're selling for $229.99 there.

I would ditch the unnecessary liquid cooling, especially since you didn't even bother to overclock your Athlon, and cool the i7 with a TRUE ($65), a very reputable air cooler for overclocking. If you wanted the Thermaltake Armor+ for its looks, grab it for $101.

And don't get that GTX 280. I hope you know that HD 4890s and GTX 275s are cheaper than that GTX 280 and consume less power. If you don't fold or do GPGPU computing then grab this MSI 4890 for $169.99 after a $20 rebate. If you do or would rather get an NVIDIA card, here's a Sparkle GTX 275 for $205.

Also, that 800W PSU is massive overkill. A GTX 275 paired with an i7 965 overclocked to 3.7GHz has a peak power consumption of ~396 Watts (Source). An HD 4890 with the same OCed i7 peaks at ~370 Watts (Source). But if you plan to dual SLI or CrossFire those cards, then that 800W makes sense.

Zomgyogi · Jun 15, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

You really don't need liquid cooling unless you are going over 4.0GHz. Some people have hit 4.2-4.3 on air with the D0 stepping.
My suggestions for a cooler:
Prolimatech Megahalem & a Panaflo-M 120mmx38mm fan

You don't need a 700w+ PSU unless you are going to Crossfire or SLi you cards, a 600w will run the system fine. I threw together a nice $1200 i7 build on another thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zomgyogi

CPU+Mobo+RAM Combo: i7 920, Asus P6T Deluxe V2, OCZ Gold 6GB 1600
CASE + PSU: Cooler Master HAF 932 + Corsair 750TX Usually a $20 rebate on the power supply. You can change this to the 902 + the 750w or a 650w if hes not going to Crossfire.
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 4890
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB
DVD Burner: W/e is in stock
CPU Cooler: XIGMATEK Dark Knight-S1283V

Total: $1230 + $30 in rebates, leaves ~$200 for a monitor.

Changes
Armor+, Did you want the full tower or mid?
Another 1TB
CPU Cooler
Bluray player
Case: Thermaltake ArmorPlus(Armor+) VH6000BWS Full Tower
CPU+Mobo+RAM Combo: i7 920, Asus P6T Deluxe V2, OCZ Gold 6GB 1600
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W Usually a $20 rebate on the power supply. You can change this to a 650w if hes not going to Crossfire.
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 4890
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB x2
Blu-Ray: LG Black Super Multi Blu-ray Disc Burner
CPU Cooler & Fan: Prolimatech Megahalem & a Panaflo-M 120mmx38mm fan

Total =~$1650

Antares Ascending · Jun 19, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

.

A word on water cooling. Never, unless you need to do some serious overclocking which is very unlikely with the 920.

I went with water initialy and had a cooler fitting crack (factory admitted to a problem) and toasted my GPU ( which EVGA replaced, knowing what had gone wrong...warrantee is life! ). Good huh.....no! PC was done long enough to go into serious game withdrawal. Also most tend to 'loose' liquid over time because of the hose materials used. As long as you don't mind randomly topping off the system, ok. This can be prevented by using an automotive heating hose which looses next to nothing but is butt ugly.
fyi. qx6700, 8800GTX 4 150 raptors in Raid 0/1. I

I run at a pretty constant high 20s to low,low mid 30s C.
2 front fans (80cfm)pushing, one pulling at the rear (120 cfm), 45 cfm side blowing over GPU and proccessor cooler ( Zalman 9700)

This is actually cooler by 1-2C than the ( ACK! forgot the name..well rated at the time tho) water cooler.