Curse

Snograt · May 25, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

I've heard of at least one mobo that supports both DDR2 and DDR3 - though not at the same time

Whether there's any point at all in getting one of those as a stop-gap, I don't know. I'm sort of guessing it's just a gimmick and that the rest of the board will be poo, but who knows?

Alexandra-Sweet · May 25, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

I've heard of at least one mobo that supports both DDR2 and DDR3 - though not at the same time

GigaByte EP35C-DS3R (1333MHz)
MSI X48C Platinum (1600MHz)
Those support both DDR2 and DDR3

The MSI X48C Platinum sounds somewhat good, but I currently have an MSI video card (passive cooling) and it keeps overheating in the summer (only when running Guild Wars + a video on the background)

Lord Sojar · May 25, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admael

Nvidia chipsets are utter garbage, only if you compare to what else is on the market. They make badass cards, and just bad chipsets.

Nvidia isn't so bad that you can't use them, but they're just not as good as intel. It's like comparing a pound of gold to two pounds of gold. The latter being intel. You obviously want a better product for the same price.

I resent this statement. Our chipsets are phenomenal, and leaps and bounds more advanced then our competitors counterparts. Provided you pair one of our GPUs to our mainboards, the union is perfect. None of the competitors chipsets can outperform the nVidia 790i chipset, period. I detest statements with no basis whatsoever backing them. You can have your opinion, that is fine; but telling another person that your opinion is the end all be all isn't fine. I do lab tests with our chipsets and the competitors chipsets. I can tell you that on average, our chipsets beat the competitors in 85% of the tests. Mind you, there are always configurations that may do much better or far worse, and that can make results skewed. However, as far as implemented technology goes, nVidia is ahead of Intel. The MCP and SPP chips on the 780/790 mainboard sets are impeccable, and the fabs that my team along with countless other teams helped make are superior to anything that our competitors have right now. Our fab technology is very advanced, and made by the best and brightest minds in the industry, and I pride myself on my work and that of my coworkers.

It is my professional opinion, that if you are indeed going with a single card solution, you are on a stricter budget, and you don't mind hits in the overall enthusiast performance areas such as crossover platforms, memory mapping, seek and write times, and data rewrites, then you can go with the competitors chipsets. However, if you want the best performing PC on the market, and you have the money, building your system around the 780/790i (particularly the 790i) chipset and SLi technology is a sure way to achieve absolutely the BEST PERFORMANCE AROUND.

Intel makes great processors, but as far as chipsets go, my personal opinion.... they are a tepid 7 out of 10 on the amazing scale. The 790i is a blistering 9 out of 10. Just wait till you see what we have for you next though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

GigaByte EP35C-DS3R (1333MHz)
MSI X48C Platinum (1600MHz)
Those support both DDR2 and DDR3

The MSI X48C Platinum sounds somewhat good, but I currently have an MSI video card (passive cooling) and it keeps overheating in the summer (only when running Guild Wars + a video on the background)

Like I said, go with a liquid cooling solution. You can buy a prebuilt kit; you lose performance versus DIY cooling projects, but it tends to be a safer investment for a first time LC adopter. The Thermaltake bigWater 2U and 3U systems are not too shabby, but beware of the single slot systems, they are terrible.

Look, honestly, just buy the following parts before I go insane and start ripping people to pieces in this tech forum....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115036
You don't need a quad core, save your money. I don't care how much multitasking you do, the compilers on today's operating systems and program are not anywhere near advanced enough to utilize quad core technology. They are just now catching up to dual core tech. This processor will run very cool, and you can overclock it quite safely.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813188025
Best motherboard on the market in my personal opinion (I can't officially endorse a company, at least not professionally, but I can personally) Personally, eVGA is THE COMPANY at the moment, with the best customer support, amazing products, and the step up program, which is the best thing to happen to the IT industry in years.

GRAPHICS CARDS: Well, considering we are launching our new GPUs (the nVidia Geforce GTX 280 and GTX 260) on June 18th, you should wait until then to purchase. You will be pleasantly surprised. If, however, you are that impatient, go with this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130339
2 of those, maybe 3 if you are feeling really daring, although with liquid cooling, I would go with only 2.

Alexandra-Sweet · May 25, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Intel makes great processors, but as far as chipsets go, my personal opinion.... they are a tepid 7 out of 10 on the amazing scale. The 790i is a blistering 9 out of 10. Just wait till you see what we have for you next though.

So it's true that Nvidia is going to buy the license from VIA to develope processors?

AMD is kind of running behind and Intel is in the lead of processor development, but if Nvidia gets into the battle it should be balanced again.

Just imagine a computer 100% out of Nvidia technology/hardware.

Lord Sojar · May 25, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

So it's true that Nvidia is going to buy the license from VIA to develope processors?

AMD is kind of running behind and Intel is in the lead of processor development, but if Nvidia gets into the battle it should be balanced again.

Just imagine a computer 100% out of Nvidia technology/hardware.

Oh, well, I can't comment on that. I was referring to our next mainboard lineup. No dates, or additional info beyond that though.

Snograt · May 25, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

Just imagine a computer 100% out of Nvidia technology/hardware.

Ah, but what if AMD did..

...never mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Personally, eVGA is THE COMPANY at the moment, with the best customer support, amazing products, and the step up program, which is the best thing to happen to the IT industry in years.

Damn - just checked that out (step-up, that is). It is available in the UK - wish I'd known that a year ago ><

Ah well, their 680i is not too shabby - see no reason to upgrade (without upgrading everything on the board

)

Lord Sojar · May 25, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snograt

Ah, but what if AMD did..

...never mind.

Damn - just checked that out (step-up, that is). It is available in the UK - wish I'd known that a year ago ><

Ah well, their 680i is not too shabby - see no reason to upgrade (without upgrading everything on the board

)

Yeh, the 680i was a rock solid chipset. I didn't have the privilege of working on that little beastie.

Blackhearted · May 25, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

So it's true that Nvidia is going to buy the license from VIA to develope processors?

AMD is kind of running behind and Intel is in the lead of processor development, but if Nvidia gets into the battle it should be balanced again.

Just imagine a computer 100% out of Nvidia technology/hardware.

If they're using VIA for cpu's then they likely wont be very fast machines.

Alexandra-Sweet · May 25, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Like I said, go with a liquid cooling solution. You can buy a prebuilt kit; you lose performance versus DIY cooling projects, but it tends to be a safer investment for a first time LC adopter. The Thermaltake bigWater 2U and 3U systems are not too shabby, but beware of the single slot systems, they are terrible.

Like 10 posts before I said I like the Thermaltake BigWater 760i because it's funny and small but I don't know if it's any good. xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

You can buy a prebuilt kit; you lose performance versus DIY cooling projects, but it tends to be a safer investment for a first time LC adopter.

A what, who, why, when, where? >.>
Prebuilt = case with all the cooling thingies in it before you buy it?
DIY = .....?
LC = .....?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

GRAPHICS CARDS: Well, considering we are launching our new GPUs (the nVidia Geforce GTX 280 and GTX 260) on June 18th, you should wait until then to purchase. You will be pleasantly surprised.

I know the 7, 8, 9 series but I never heard of GTX280 or GTX 260 >.>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

You don't need a quad core, save your money. I don't care how much multitasking you do, the compilers on today's operating systems and program are not anywhere near advanced enough to utilize quad core technology. They are just now catching up to dual core tech. This processor will run very cool, and you can overclock it quite safely.

But but but isn't a quad core able to do more thingies at the same time than a dual core? (and you can always manually set the Processor Affinity)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

eVGA is THE COMPANY at the moment, with the best customer support, amazing products, and the step up program, which is the best thing to happen to the IT industry in years.

Does eVGA have a motherboard that supports both DDR2 and DDR3?

And I think eVGA is dangerous. n.n
They have thingies like these on their site:

Quote:

Originally Posted by eVGA

WARNING: Certain desktop motherboards sold in California prior to October 20, 2006, contain lead solder. Lead is a chemical known to the State of California to cause birth defects and other reproductive harm.

Please wash hands after handling those motherboards that utilize lead solder and avoid inhalation of fumes if heating the solder on the product.

Told you I'm blond!

Lord Sojar · May 25, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Ok, lol. I will answer each question as they come, hahaha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

Like 10 posts before I said I like the Thermaltake BigWater 760i because it's funny and small but I don't know if it's any good. xD

Here are the Thermaltake systems (and one Coolermaster kit) that are good for first time liquid cooling system installers (like yourself)

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/72...?tl=g30c83s765
I read some reviews about this kit, and I was surprised. People really thought it was high quality. It is definitely worth a look.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/63...?tl=g30c83s136
That one is pretty decent. Definitely and option.

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/72...0c83s137#blank
This one is amazing, but carries a hefty price tag, and will be a bit more difficult to setup, but I think with some patience, you can do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

A what, who, why, when, where? >.>
Prebuilt = case with all the cooling thingies in it before you buy it?
DIY = .....?
LC = .....?

Prebuilt = yes, a case with fully integrated liquid cooling system. Typically not a great idea. However, it also can mean a prebuilt system, like the Bigwater system or Coolermaster system I linked you to above, which are typically decent.

DIY = Do It Yourself, which basically means you buy individual parts and make a custom system. These are amazing if you know what you are doing, and can keep your CPU and graphics cards very chilly if you have high quality components or install everything carefully and correctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

I know the 7, 8, 9 series but I never heard of GTX280 or GTX 260 >.>

That is because they are not out yet. I work for nVidia. I am permitted to break a small amount of news about these cards. However, the same news can be found on Tomshardware at this point, so I won't be bothered to vomit the same numbers back up here.

There ya go. Fresh batches of GTX 280s, ready for you to buy them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

But but but isn't a quad core able to do more thingies at the same time than a dual core? (and you can always manually set the Processor Affinity)

You are not using any application that would require a quad core chip. A dual core can do everything you want to do, and 4x that. A quad core would simply produce more heat, use more power, and give you maybe 5% performance gains for 40% more money. Not worth it. You can always upgrade down the road. You won't be stuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

Does eVGA have a motherboard that supports both DDR2 and DDR3?

And I think eVGA is dangerous. n.n
They have thingies like these on their site:

Told you I'm blond!

eVGA is simply warning customers about motherboards that contain lead solder. That is a good thing, not a bad thing, lol.

As for DDR2 and DDR3 support. Just go with DDR3 support, and forget DDR2. It is being phased out. You can upgrade to a super fast low latency DDR3 in a year from now for cheap, and get a nice performance boost. You won't miss the 1%-4% loss of performance in 20% of the things you will be doing from the high latencies of DDR3 vs its "faster" DDR2. If this terminology confuses you, I would invite you to read my memory guide. It should help shed some light on the situation.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10288946

Make sure you post in that guide, so it gets bumped up for others to see, since apparently this section officially lacks a moderator... /pickme?

Brianna · May 25, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Hmm.. *Walks in and takes a few racks of GTX 280's* You saw nothing.

I'd say go with DDR3 too, I am going to - but I'm waiting for a while till I do that, probably later in 2008-early 2009 when GTA IV and GW2 are close to being released, because I want to spec out a system that can play both of those games on max settings with 60+ FPS.

Alexandra-Sweet · May 25, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Well... Intel will launch their new Socket in the end of 2008 along with a new series of processors, and DDR3 should be awesome by then. Maybe I should do the same as Brianna. -Blames her- >.>

And I will probably have enough money by then to buy the best of the best of the best.

Tamuril elansar · May 25, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

only take Nvidia chipsets when you're running sli, else go for intel chipsets.

DDR3 isn't worth the money atm only gives around 2-5fps more atm.

Lord Sojar · May 25, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamuril elansar

only take Nvidia chipsets when you're running sli, else go for intel chipsets.

DDR3 isn't worth the money atm only gives around 2-5fps more atm.

However, buying a DDR2 motherboard would be silly.... just plain silly.

zamial · May 25, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

However, buying a DDR2 motherboard would be silly.... just plain silly.

From an enthusiasts stand point this is true. From a min-maxer's stand point this is false. DDR2 ram is MASSIVELY less expensive than DDR3. What you would pay for 1 gig of ddr3, I can get at least 4 if not 8 gigs of DDR2 ram. The latency's of ddr3 are still less than ok. The end user will not notice the difference all that much.

Those new graphics cards look literally, huge are those 2 or 4 in a layer?. I thought the 9800 series was big lol looks like I was wrong. I don't know if it will even be possible to water cool those monsters in a mid atx case. (for others reading a mid case is not very small)

BTW Nvidia stole all my money , that I gave them, and I could not be any more pleased with my performance.

Nvidia is the best!

The difference in a DD2 vs. DDR3 system with = amounts of ram is near 1000.00 USD.

To those looking to build that 5 year machine, best of luck to you. Until the latency in DDR3 is lower or equal to DDR2 ill be on a DDR2 machine. My logical conclusion after studying hardware in the NOW is:

Get the 780i mobo, a Q6600, 9800gx2 a decent sound card and let it ride. There is no game out there that will need more than this for a long time. By the time that game is out you prob just need to grab another 9800 gx2 and a Qx9850 chip which will also be alot cheaper at that time.(near 5 years?)

Getting a 790i now is like lighting money on fire. It will not (to the best of my knowledge) support the 32nm chips from intel, which are not out yet. DDR3 is still needing work. When the time to upgrade to a DDR3 system is needed, It will be time to completely upgrade the whole system. The general problem is the software, XP is a world wide OS and as a game developer you want as many people to be able to buy your product as possible. This too will change with time.

A little history lesson:
http://mugur.roz.md/computer-science...ce/lib0041.htm

Soon and I mean soon, we are going to hit a hardware wall, physics starts to come into play, ie. you can only push an electron through a wire/path so fast. The next step is light, and then????

To get on and stay on the bleeding edge of technology will make you poor and probably bald. To build a machine that is near the edge, then watch it race forward until you need to upgrade, makes you smart.

BTW I run a pure DDR2 SLI system, The human eye can not tell a difference in 40 + FPS vs 300 FPS unless you are near death(and the near death is under debate). Your monitor will not display more than it refresh rate. So think about this when building a system. Are you building it to play and use or are you trying to impress people, like the kid that sqeels the tires around the corner. Yes there is faster machines than mine out there but in game it will not save you from my wrath or give you an edge over me.

Lord Sojar · May 26, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Those new graphics cards look literally, huge are those 2 or 4 in a layer?. I thought the 9800 series was big lol looks like I was wrong. I don't know if it

They are dimensionally the same as the 9800GTX, not the GX2 series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

support the 32nm chips from intel

You don't have white papers on the 32nm chips, so it may be unwise to suggest anything regarding them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Soon and I mean soon, we are going to hit a hardware wall, physics starts to come into play, ie. you can only push an electron through a wire/path so fast. The next step is light, and then????

Let's not go into nano electrical/magnetic debate. That is my career field of expertis right there.

Serafita Kayin · May 26, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Some of us do have that white paper, though...

What are you guys looking into to solve those disappearing and reappearing electrons?

zamial · May 26, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I was under the impression, which means I may be wrong. I literally know nothing about them other than what I have dug up and "heard" about. I can not confirm anything. From my understanding, the 32nm chips will use a new form factor. A different form factor means a different motherboard.

Thanxs for the size info.on the new cards, I was a little worried by those pics.lol

Ec]-[oMaN · May 26, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Most of the average computer users will never make use of the bandwidth ddr3 has to offer anyways, gonna need a damn high fsb!!! 250+$mobo list goes on.

Lord Sojar · May 26, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serafita Kayin

Some of us do have that white paper, though...

What are you guys looking into to solve those disappearing and reappearing electrons?

LOL. I suppose you are referring to the electron count in a single transistor at a given size, where that size is very small, thus entropy can actually "destroy" the electrons, resulting in data loss, resulting in an error, or did I miss a meeting again?

Typically, when you create a fab, that given fab is under the laws that govern the material if was created using, which in our case is SiO2. Si02 caps are decent, but aging technology. As I was made aware, the 32nm chips Intel is offering are utilizing a full trans op Hafnium coating over a tied slot gate. If that be the case, a transistor area would be about... 15 atoms of Si across, which could create (and is very likely to create) electron surges in the lower most gates, while the upper most gates would suffer from data loss. You would need to put parasitic diodes in between the gates at set points where you had significant electron buildup, buildup that would create varying heat pockets throughout the translayer? Seems a bit....odd... Oh well, I will need to take a peek at the white papers if I can, and if I can get my hands on it, a schematic of the gate controllers. Time shall soon tell, but 55nm technology was hard enough to deal with this cycle. I have yet to start my next project, at least as far as die shrinks are concerned. Have no idea if the other teams are doing such things.