Curse

XDeadboltX · May 29, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

So I got my laptop around 10 month ago. I use to run about 30fps on high and 60 on low. Now however, I struggle to get 10fps on high, and about 15 on low and I have no idea why. I run GW in windowed mode.

My current card is a Mobility Radeon X2300. When playing Guild wars, my laptop normally runs at 60-70 degrees celcius according to Speedfan.

I have a feeling that this has damaged the card in some way but I dont know much about computers so would like some advice. Any ideas on what the problem could be?

lordpwn · May 29, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Graphics hardware shouldn't get slower when it's damaged; it just doesn't work or produces messed up images.

Many CPU's, however, do have a thermal throttling feature that makes them slow themselves down to avoid damage if they're running too hot. Most trigger the throttling somewhere around 70 C, so this may be happening to your laptop.

Try cleaning the laptop's airways of any dust that may have accumulated. Also, if the laptop only sucks in air from its bottom, consider lifting it from the table a little to improve the cooling. Put CD cases or something like that under the back "feet".

XDeadboltX · May 29, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I forgot to mention, I get a lot of bluescreens/screen going black/screen gradually getting whiter and whiter, when playing and charging mainly, but sometimes just when playing too.

How would I clean the airways, do i need to open it up or just vacuum inside?

I think I tried the lifting thing to elevate it but it didnt seem to do much

Lord Sojar · May 29, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordpwn

Graphics hardware shouldn't get slower when it's damaged; it just doesn't work or produces messed up images.

Many CPU's, however, do have a thermal throttling feature that makes them slow themselves down to avoid damage if they're running too hot. Most trigger the throttling somewhere around 70 C, so this may be happening to your laptop.

Try cleaning the laptop's airways of any dust that may have accumulated. Also, if the laptop only sucks in air from its bottom, consider lifting it from the table a little to improve the cooling. Put CD cases or something like that under the back "feet".

Oh no no, that is far from the truth. A GPU core with significant enough degradation of gate structure can make simple errors that are self corrected by a back check. This creates a slow down to the user. Artifacting and image distortion are only created when the damage has become so severe, it has created fatal errors. It only gets worse from the initial artifacting. You will need to send it in for repairs, but you can try cleaning it out first. You might be able to recover it, because GPU cores typically have a reroute code built in, to avoid specific gates if they are heavily damaged. I am not totally familiar with the ATi cards unless you are talking about the new HD3000 series or better, and in particular the mobility series. If you get the card to cool down, it will eventually self correct if possible (unless they didn't put in reroute paths, which would be odd)

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

I forgot to mention, I get a lot of bluescreens/screen going black/screen gradually getting whiter and whiter, when playing and charging mainly, but sometimes just when playing too.

How would I clean the airways, do i need to open it up or just vacuum inside?

I think I tried the lifting thing to elevate it but it didnt seem to do much

You can clean it using a pretty simple method. Open up the areas you can, get a can of compressed air, and go to town blowing the crap out of the insides. You can also use a shop vac to suck out crap. Hopefully the GPU isn't damaged beyond its own self repair abilities, or it may not be damaged at all (just overheating, but that leads to damage, so you need to get on this ASAP)

lordpwn · May 29, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

A GPU core with significant enough degradation of gate structure can make simple errors that are self corrected by a back check. This creates a slow down to the user.

Integrity checks on a GPU? Reliable source, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Artifacting and image distortion are only created when the damage has become so severe, it has created fatal errors.

Artifacting and image distortion are also perfectly normal when you're overclocking the hardware and it's getting close to its limit. This is not a symptom of any damage as you claim, just the card temporarily malfunctioning from the high temperature. It'll usually get back to normal - not because of any magic "reroute" crap, but just because it works correctly when it's _not_ overheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

You might be able to recover it, because GPU cores typically have a reroute code built in, to avoid specific gates if they are heavily damaged. I am not totally familiar with the ATi cards unless you are talking about the new HD3000 series or better, and in particular the mobility series. If you get the card to cool down, it will eventually self correct if possible (unless they didn't put in reroute paths, which would be odd)

I think you're confusing the component disabling done at manufacturing stage and sometimes through drivers (to work around bad shader units, etc.) with TV sci-fi or something.

Lord Sojar · May 29, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordpwn

Integrity checks on a GPU? Reliable source, please.

Artifacting and image distortion are also perfectly normal when you're overclocking the hardware and it's getting close to its limit. This is not a symptom of any damage as you claim, just the card temporarily malfunctioning from the high temperature. It'll usually get back to normal - not because of any magic "reroute" crap, but just because it works correctly when it's _not_ overheating.

I think you're confusing the component disabling done at manufacturing stage and sometimes through drivers (to work around bad shader units, etc.) with TV sci-fi or something.

Oh please, reliable source? I design the fabs for GPUs and cache systems. I think I know what I am talking about.

Yes, if you read my post, overheating can cause artifacting. If the GPU continues to run at that level, it will cause gate cell degradation, which will in turn cause cession of the silicon, which in turn causes your card to...well, "die".

I am not confusing anything. We always put in additional gates and threads in case a small (and I mean small) section of the chip is damaged by heat degradation. A chip can't self heal, but it can reroute its ability through the backup transistor gates.

Let me show you:

You will notice that PMOS stress liner is adjacent to the NMOS liner. In a typical setup, the PMOS liner will saturate up, but if it is damaged, the PMOS can saturate down (this takes longer). NMOS gates can be symmetrical, unlike PMOS gates, and so the NMOS liner can draw both slow and fast. When the NMOS draws at low power, DC currents can go right through it, provided that the pull down is open. Normally this is seen as bad, considering that you get a low output and electron buildup, but when you are creating a rerouting path, you can use this to your advantage. If you make the CoSi2 layer thin enough, it can hold electric charge perfectly fine, until you actively open the PDN. This allows pass through upon significant damage to a small section of PMOS. This disadvantage is, however, that this reroute is much slower than the original pathways because they are not really "open". Make sense?

lordpwn · May 29, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Make sense?

Fine, I'll admit my specialty is software and the single university course on integrated circuit design and stuff I took years back isn't enough to tell if you just made that up or not. My Google-fu also fails to produce anything that would confirm the stuff in that post as true or false.

I still think it's just CPU thermal throttling kicking in, though

XDeadboltX · May 29, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

It happens at start up of the laptop now too when its at a lower temperature. Thanks for the quick replies anyway :P

Cyb3r · May 29, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Rahja is right on that one completely yes it could be overheating or like what happened ages ago to one of my GFX cards (a Nvidia Fx 5950 ultra) burnt through memory controller (trust me bites) gfx card errors can be produced in alot of ways and neither me nor i think rahjah can specifically say what's the problem untill we look at the card it self

XDeadboltX · May 29, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

OK looks like ill be sending it in for repairs first then. Tyvm

lordpwn · May 29, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

If the thing's stable enough for that consider making some backups; if you send it in for repair/replacement there's no telling if it'll come back with the same hard disk or not.

XDeadboltX · May 29, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordpwn

If the thing's stable enough for that consider making some backups; if you send it in for repair/replacement there's no telling if it'll come back with the same hard disk or not.

Already done, got my docs and music saved onto my zen and a desktop just to be safe lol

Lord Sojar · May 30, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

Already done, got my docs and music saved onto my zen and a desktop just to be safe lol

Good man!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordpwn

Fine, I'll admit my specialty is software and the single university course on integrated circuit design and stuff I took years back isn't enough to tell if you just made that up or not. My Google-fu also fails to produce anything that would confirm the stuff in that post as true or false.

I still think it's just CPU thermal throttling kicking in, though

<----3 years of doctoral work on the subject. It is my field, my specialty, and what I teach. I would not dare make up anything... that would be misinformation, and a lie. If there is one thing I don't do, it is to lie. Software you say? CS major? You a Unix or Linux guy?