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Old Jan 26, 2014, 02:56 AM // 02:56   #1
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Default Weapon q8 vs q9 (Exact numbers)

Hi all,

I want to find the difference between q8 and q9 weapons,
I was told by someone that q8 weapons do more damage.

I am wondering if someone knows the exact percentage of extra damage
and has performed tests with q8 and q9.

Thanks
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 05:38 AM // 05:38   #2
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I haven't actually done a test to prove this, and even if 1 test was done, it would not really statistically prove anything, because each hit can vary in damage. You would have do many many tries to find something statistically significant. If you did one test, you could get a weak q9 hit and a strong q8 hit and try to say something from it, or vice versa.

I am going to say though that the only difference comes when you have 8 of your attribute. You will be a wimp using the r9, but deal normal damage with the r8.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 06:59 AM // 06:59   #3
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I don't believe you do any more damage with q8 over q9 except for the example Surge pointed out. But then again, for melee weapons q9 with barely reach attribute req will probably do more dmg than r8 with barely reached attribute req.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 07:23 AM // 07:23   #4
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Meeting the requirement of the weapon is all that is needed for max damage.

A r8 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 8 or more.
A r9 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 9 or more.

However, you increase the chance if a critical hit the higher your attribute is set over the sword's requirement. You have a greater chance of a critical hit if you have swordsmanship 15 when wielding a r8 max sword rather than a r9.

The main difference is the rarity, and therefore the price.

Max
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 09:21 AM // 09:21   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxBorken View Post
Meeting the requirement of the weapon is all that is needed for max damage.

A r8 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 8 or more.
A r9 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 9 or more.

However, you increase the chance if a critical hit the higher your attribute is set over the sword's requirement. You have a greater chance of a critical hit if you have swordsmanship 15 when wielding a r8 max sword rather than a r9.

The main difference is the rarity, and therefore the price.

Max
Do you know how much higher the crit chance gets? Because then you could calculate the mean damage increase.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 11:41 AM // 11:41   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadekill View Post
Do you know how much higher the crit chance gets? Because then you could calculate the mean damage increase.
No, but guildwiki, linked from the top of the page can tell you

Max
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 12:22 PM // 12:22   #7
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Personally I think Q8 and Q9 will do the same damage once the rank is met. GuildWars have always been about skills, not about finding better weapons.

Critical Hit @ GuildWiki


Nothing here mentions the actual rank of the weapon, only attacker's rank, level etc.
That being said, just because it's on wiki doesn't mean it's 100% accurate, only way is to try test it yourself. Maybe 5 minutes of auto-attacking Master of Damage with each weapon (at max rank, not just weapon rank).
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 12:34 PM // 12:34   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxBorken View Post
No, but guildwiki, linked from the top of the page can tell you

Max
Browsed through reqs, damage and crit calculation formulas and didn't found any information about the difference between req and attribute will increase your crit chance. The only thing I found is that increased weapon mastery will increase your crit chance (as well as dmg). But it doesn't factor in the weapon req beside the treshold.

But maybe I'm just blind and confused by these completly addleheaded formulas.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 12:56 PM // 12:56   #9
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Damage Calculation
Damage caculation for a weapon involves a lot of factors, but not the actual weapon rank. A Q7 or a Q13 would thus deal the same amount of damage once you meet the requirements.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 10:39 PM // 22:39   #10
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Ok, so no one in this thread has it quite right.

Firstly, not meeting the weapon req means you're effectively using a starter weapon. So if you're using a max (15-22) req 12 sword with only 10 in swordsmanship, your sword effectively has a damage range of 2-3. The bonuses however are not affected (such as +health).

Secondly, damage scales according to weapon rank. This:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxBorken
Meeting the requirement of the weapon is all that is needed for max damage.

A r8 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 8 or more.
A r9 sword does 15-22 damage if your swordsmanship is 9 or more.
is WRONG.

A weapon rank of 12 will give you 100% of the stated damage range, so a max damage (15-22) sword (that you meet the req for) will do 15-22 damage if you have 12 swordmanship. If you only had 11, you'd be doing a little bit less, even if you still met the requirement. From the second formula in Bristlebane's link (using sword values):



(The ranks 0-6 are a bit contrived because you can't get max damage weapons with requirements that low.)

These are not true DPS numbers as they do not take into account critical hits; the chance for which rises with attribute rank (NOT the difference between req and attribute level - Max is wrong here too).

The formula changes somewhat when your weapon attribute rises above 12. The damage range does improve over 15-22, but the gains become smaller.

------------------------

In practical terms, weapon req doesn't usually matter. Anyone seriously using a martial weapon should generally have ~14 in their weapon attribute. Sometimes this isn't possible (like if you're running a x/A dagger build or something like that), but you should still be pumping up the weapon attribute. The only real time where I can think a low req martial weapon would matter is where you're running a Paragon (or similar) who needs to split attributes four ways and you want spear damage but can't invest heavily in it.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 10:57 PM // 22:57   #11
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We'll there you go.

Last time I try and answer a question here. I learned something today.

Max
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 10:59 PM // 22:59   #12
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@Marty: So that still means that the difference between weapon req and attribute level don't change anything. If you have an attribute level of 12 it will do the same dmg with a req8 and a req9 sword because neither the dmg nor the critchance changes (if I'm reading the formulas correct).
So if that is true, the answer to the OP would simply be: What that someone said wasn't true.
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Old Jan 26, 2014, 11:09 PM // 23:09   #13
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@fadekill: Your understanding is correct (and yes, that guy the op talks about is wrong).

@Max: People get this stuff wrong all the time. It's not always intuitive, and there are far too many factors going on in actual play that make it impossible to figure out whats going on unless you do the number crunching (which I'm happy to admit I enjoy).
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Old Jan 27, 2014, 12:06 AM // 00:06   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade View Post
Ok, so no one in this thread has it quite right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bristlebane View Post
A Q7 or a Q13 would thus deal the same amount of damage once you meet the requirements.
So tell me Marty, what would be wrong with this statement then?

And if you refer to me not mentioning lower damage due to not meeting minimum requirement, did I really have to spell out something as obvious?

Last edited by Bristlebane; Jan 27, 2014 at 12:09 AM // 00:09..
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Old Jan 27, 2014, 12:24 AM // 00:24   #15
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It's wrong because a req 7 (sword, for conveniences sake) would do 9.73-14.27 damage if you're only just meeting the requirement, whereas a req 13 @ 13 would be over 15-22. That's how I interpreted that statement. If you meant a req 7 sword @ 13 swordsmanship compared to a req 13 sword @ 13 swordsmanship, you would be correct.

(Also, my statement was pretty general. Many things said in this thread are true. Others are myths that have existed since the beginning of the game, for whatever reason. It tends to be worth going through the whole thing just to set the record straight.)
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Old Jan 27, 2014, 01:00 AM // 01:00   #16
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Well then let me clarify. What I meant is that if you have the same attribute points AND meet the minium requirements, you will deal the same amount of damage with otherwise identical weapons.

You made the assumption I would only invest just enough to meet minimum requirement, this was something you read between the lines. I suppose my statements too was pretty general. Good thing my career was not into law then where you have to cover every possible twist and loophole soit can't be misread :P
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Old Jan 27, 2014, 11:18 PM // 23:18   #17
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My understanding is this:

At 14 Swordsmanship, a req7 and req13 sword, with otherwise identical stats, will perform exactly the same.

The only tangible benefit of lower requirements is the flexibility of lowering the Swordsmanship attribute (to raise other attributes) and still dealing notable damage. Not meeting the requirement makes your sword merely tickle the opponent.

The other benefit is the vanity of low requirement items which have always been highly regarded and sought-after due to rarity.

~~~

Few people will run martial weapons (except bows/niche builds) with less than 13 or 14 in the attribute because, like any skill line, the damage scales with the attribute. Owning a max req7 sword is doesn't mean you can PvP with 7 swordsmanship and expect to kill stuff effectively. It does mean your Healing Hands can be quite powerful, however.

Last edited by makosi; Jan 27, 2014 at 11:24 PM // 23:24..
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Old Jan 31, 2014, 06:07 AM // 06:07   #18
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I hate to say it but Marty is right, I was really Tweaked when I found out you had to have 12 pts on an Att to get full value from a weapon but that's how it is the formula for damage works, it assumes 12; but as you said if you don't meet Rq you only do starter damage. 2 or 3 pts max. Akkk; Rq 8 weapons are very valuable, but that's more to do with Market forces and Rarity. If a player takes a totally utilitarian point of view, then there no reason to favor a Rq 9 weapon over say a 12. If my War is running Axe shes going to be at least 12 + runes anyhow; same for my Ranger and her bow. (Yes I run bow not Dagger.)

Of course a player can do significant damage on skills alone, my Ranger often runs a fire build with Ebon Standard/ Conjure Flame and I am the Strongest all at once/ I can wade in with my Dragon Sword and whack for 52 points per shot; then if the battle is moving off pull out my bow stay in ward for the Ebon Standard and still do significant damage. I would not recommend it for HM, but its great casual NM fun.



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Last edited by Blackbirdx61; Jan 31, 2014 at 06:15 AM // 06:15..
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